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Illegal Tampering by Diesel Pickup Owners Is Worsening Pollution, E.P.A. Says

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Illegal Tampering by Diesel Pickup Owners Is Worsening Pollution, E.P.A. Says

Old 11-28-2020, 08:52 AM
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What do you call a basement full of tuned diesel engine owners? A whine cellar.

Diesel engines have always been much dirtier than gasoline engines. Think back a little. I remember the municipal buses in the fifties. I drove a convertible much of the time with the top down. Only once did I make the mistake of being next to one at a stop light. The exhaust blowing on me and my passengers when the bus took off was literally sickening. It's better now but the engines still stink.

Gasoline engines today have HP, torque, fuel economy and reliability we couldn't visualize 20 years ago. Consumers have demanded this and we have it despite draconian EPA demands because engineers know what they are doing. The diesel side has lagged along behind from day one. Why, consumer acceptance of the products. If the diesels available today don't sell well they will be improved until the do sell or go the way of the dinosaurs. We can easily do without automotive diesel power. Even heavy duty diesels are operated on natural gas where available. The emissions are barely measurable and the oil never needs changing.

I spent most of lifetime working on diesel engines from three cylinder two strokes to big Coopers, EMDs, GM and Fairbanks. I owned diesel vehicles 1980 until 2010 when I could np longer stomach the huge prices compared to a strong gasoline V8.
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Old 11-28-2020, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Butch Davis View Post
What do you call a basement full of tuned diesel engine owners? A whine cellar.

Diesel engines have always been much dirtier than gasoline engines. Think back a little. I remember the municipal buses in the fifties. I drove a convertible much of the time with the top down. Only once did I make the mistake of being next to one at a stop light. The exhaust blowing on me and my passengers when the bus took off was literally sickening. It's better now but the engines still stink.

Gasoline engines today have HP, torque, fuel economy and reliability we couldn't visualize 20 years ago. Consumers have demanded this and we have it despite draconian EPA demands because engineers know what they are doing. The diesel side has lagged along behind from day one. Why, consumer acceptance of the products. If the diesels available today don't sell well they will be improved until the do sell or go the way of the dinosaurs. We can easily do without automotive diesel power. Even heavy duty diesels are operated on natural gas where available. The emissions are barely measurable and the oil never needs changing.

I spent most of lifetime working on diesel engines from three cylinder two strokes to big Coopers, EMDs, GM and Fairbanks. I owned diesel vehicles 1980 until 2010 when I could np longer stomach the huge prices compared to a strong gasoline V8.
Yup, all the EPA did is force diesels to meet the emissions levels tha gas engines do, with an added on max amount of particulates. If you look into particulates, they are aweful.

As far as having enough time to make a system work, there has been plenty of time by now, and the newest ones work very well. VWs screw up wasn't about having enough time, they had a controls system that would meet the requirements but it would of cost more and delayed the launch by a half year. The execs chose to save face and try to slide under the requiments... and some college kids caught them (history of that is interesting).

Vehicles do put out exhaust that is cleaner than the air coming into the engine ... in a few counties in the US where it's mostly smog and haze for weeks at a time. To say that the cars in the US clean the air is silly or stupid.

That said, I think the emissions requirements for gas engines are going beyond where they make sense as far as cost vs value. And catagorizing CO2 as a harmful emission is wrong, it's just a way for some to back door a fuel economy standard for a state... which is not legal.
Old 11-28-2020, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ericinmich View Post
Yup, all the EPA did is force diesels to meet the emissions levels tha gas engines do, with an added on max amount of particulates. If you look into particulates, they are aweful.

As far as having enough time to make a system work, there has been plenty of time by now, and the newest ones work very well. VWs screw up wasn't about having enough time, they had a controls system that would meet the requirements but it would of cost more and delayed the launch by a half year. The execs chose to save face and try to slide under the requiments... and some college kids caught them (history of that is interesting).

Vehicles do put out exhaust that is cleaner than the air coming into the engine ... in a few counties in the US where it's mostly smog and haze for weeks at a time. To say that the cars in the US clean the air is silly or stupid.

That said, I think the emissions requirements for gas engines are going beyond where they make sense as far as cost vs value. And catagorizing CO2 as a harmful emission is wrong, it's just a way for some to back door a fuel economy standard for a state... which is not legal.
The CO2 emphasis has really screwed up our new vehicle technology. EPA applies CO2 controls to combustion engines but not EVs. EVs are just as bad, if not worse. The EPA has regulated EVs into prominence by applying MPG standards that are superior numerically, but in reality EV mpg is bogus if carbon reduction is the goal. Why the government promotes EVs as a matter of policy is beyond rational explanation!

Back to diesels, the unique emission component that causes most of the added emission costs and reduced reliability are NOx controls. The EGR valves and DEF injection are leading components of added costs and reduced reliability. Unfortunately, NOx emissions really need control because the stuff is really caustic to respiratory systems and tend to build up to high concentration in metro areas. Particulates get most of the attention, but are relatively easily controlled by particulate filters which are less problematic than NOx emission controls.

The last diesel I owned was an ‘08. No DEF and no problems! It has a particulate filter and operated seamlessly and without problems. Regen no problems. It wasn't until DEF was added that diesel costs and reliability went bad.
Old 11-28-2020, 01:51 PM
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NONE of this will matter, The Babbler in Chief & John "Herman Munster" Kerry are going to put us atop the Paris Agreement crapola early next spring and we'll all be farting through straws and fishing from the bank!
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Old 11-28-2020, 02:28 PM
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way too many roll coal just leaving a stop light/sign with the megaphone tail pipes around here in Tx.
would not bother me if they would start ticketing them for jacking with the emissions
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Old 11-28-2020, 02:29 PM
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Now that this is really public knowledge, bureaucracy simply cannot allow such a brazen affront to their authority to go unanswered.

Hope you guys kept your parts.




Old 11-28-2020, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 99yam40 View Post
way too many roll coal just leaving a stop light/sign with the megaphone tail pipes around here in Tx.
would not bother me if they would start ticketing them for jacking with the emissions
I'd have zero problem with tickets for black smoke from a modern truck. A modern diesel making black smoke is not tuned right and gives a very bad name to anything diesel. Just plain stupid.

You can delete a truck and do a decent tune and not get black smoke.
Old 11-28-2020, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Corndog38 View Post
I'd have zero problem with tickets for black smoke from a modern truck. A modern diesel making black smoke is not tuned right and gives a very bad name to anything diesel. Just plain stupid.

You can delete a truck and do a decent tune and not get black smoke.
exactly right. Want to ticket the dumb kid with a horrible tune that smokes out everybody at a stop light? Go right ahead. But don’t punish the folks that have clean tunes on deleted trucks for performance and reliability reasons. Like I said before, there are modern diesel trucks with clean tunes that pass smog tests.
Old 11-28-2020, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by kernmw10 View Post
... Like I said before, there are modern diesel trucks with clean tunes that pass smog tests.
Passing a states smog test doesn't mean they would pass the epa emissions requirements. I don't think any can do that.

Old 11-28-2020, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ericinmich View Post
Passing a states smog test doesn't mean they would pass the epa emissions requirements. I don't think any can do that.
Perhaps not, but that tuned engine is probably still leaps and bounds better than the old truck they replaced.
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Old 11-28-2020, 05:47 PM
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Article written by a NY Times lefty liberal English lit major preaching science to Americans, targeting subset of vehicle owners whose demographic likely leans right

Left wing media BS
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Old 11-28-2020, 07:07 PM
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Just say NO to the NYTs I did!
Old 11-29-2020, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
Perhaps not, but that tuned engine is probably still leaps and bounds better than the old truck they replaced.
and certainly way more efficient and cleaner than the 50s bus it replaced that Butch bases his opinion on. People are quick to write off the negative externalities of modern emissions equipment; undoubtedly a shorter shelf life of the engine, worse fuel mileage, disposal of DEF jug and box, mining of minerals for the particulate filter, disposal of emissions system when it dies after 150k miles, long term effects of urea.
Old 11-29-2020, 03:30 PM
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As long as we're grandfathered from today on I have enough diesels to last the rest of my life.i have only tampered with 1 of mine so a little slap on the wrist at most.the rest were legal when bought.
Old 11-29-2020, 08:08 PM
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When it comes to the EPA highly doubt there will be any "grandfathering".

EPA has ruined the diesel truck experience imo.
Old 11-29-2020, 08:10 PM
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Yeah, I’m sure the guy with the tuned Duramax is responsible for global warming and not the mega factories spewing the equivalent of 50,000 Duramaxes into the air every day.
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Old 11-29-2020, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by magua View Post
When it comes to the EPA highly doubt there will be any "grandfathering".

EPA has ruined the diesel truck experience imo.
what do you think will happen to the folks that have pre-emissions diesels or already deleted diesels before anyone really cared? Will they force someone to sell their property or make them pay a big fine? Sounds like an inherent violation of someone’s liberty but I’m genuinely curious what is expected.
Old 11-29-2020, 09:14 PM
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Grandfathering is for a law that changed after you did something. This was already the law. The fines are steep.
Old 11-30-2020, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by kernmw10 View Post
what do you think will happen to the folks that have pre-emissions diesels or already deleted diesels before anyone really cared? Will they force someone to sell their property or make them pay a big fine? Sounds like an inherent violation of someone’s liberty but I’m genuinely curious what is expected.

Yes, that’s exactly what they’ll try to do. Hell, that’s already what they’re proposing with guns.
Old 11-30-2020, 07:15 AM
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Originally Posted by kernmw10 View Post
what do you think will happen to the folks that have pre-emissions diesels or already deleted diesels before anyone really cared? Will they force someone to sell their property or make them pay a big fine? Sounds like an inherent violation of someone’s liberty but I’m genuinely curious what is expected.
Originally Posted by STIPulation View Post
Grandfathering is for a law that changed after you did something. This was already the law. The fines are steep.
50k is the #.

Modifying the vehicle is not the issue as I understand it. Driving the modified vehicle is where the fines become applicable.

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