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Real world drag pressure

Old 04-04-2006, 04:03 PM
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Default Real world drag pressure

This is a very technical site and some of the people on here have these reels down to a science. So, I've got a question or two concerning drag.

I've heard that the drag on a 6/0 through 9/0 is basically the same. How close?

What sort of drag rating on the
1. Squidder
2. Jigmaster
3. Beachmaster (155)
4. 4/0

All with new HT-100's. Dealing with this based on a full spool. I realize the you get slightly more drag as you approach the bottom of the spool.

Also, there is a rating for getting the drag to slip and a continuous rating, right? What is the general percentage relationship of the two? How much drag is lost between greased drags and dry drags?

If the answers are not here, where might I find them? The Penn site that I visited was absolutely no help.

Thanks
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Old 04-04-2006, 04:50 PM
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Default RE: Real world drag pressure

Only one man can answer this.............. "If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find him, maybe you can hire the A(lantani) Team."

Spike
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Old 04-04-2006, 05:13 PM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

I can only tell you that the brass gear sleeves will limit the maximum drag setting on the 4/0, Squidder, & Jigmaster reels. I bought the replacement stainless steel gear sleeve that Alan has made up and I’ve tested the drag on my 4/0 with one installed to put out > 20 pounds.

Now, would I want to fish it there continuously? No way, but I find much less “chatter” & "stutter" and it appears to be smoother (this is also a greased HT100 drag). Since I will set the drag to be 1/3rd the breaking strength of the line and will probably use 40# test, I figure the 4/0 reel will be more reliable with this new drag setup.

For your questions of reel drags and start-up inertia and effective drag capability, see here and there.
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Old 04-04-2006, 08:11 PM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

Any of the reels will lock up, but they will damage their sleeves.
The Jigmaster out of the box with brass sleeves will damage the with more than 9 lbs, and reinfored SS sleeve will reportadly take 15 lbs. Backing of 20% is probably more a real world number to make em last.
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:32 AM
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Default RE: Real world drag pressure

ok, the numbers are going to be ballpark only. i've never taken the time to check this out in any kind of systematic way. it would not be hard to do, just time consuming. some of these i will be guessing at, but i should be close.

penn 114h (and 115L) - 5 stack of #6-115 drags, working drag range to 20#'s, max drag range to 30#'s or more, damage to the brass gear sleeve at probably 25#'s. the 114H and 115L (6/0 and 9/0) have the same gears and drag washers.

penn 113h (and 320/330gti!) - 5 stack of #6-113h/320 drags, working drag range to 15#'s, max drag 25#'s, damage to the brass gear sleeve at probably 20#'s.

jigmaster 500 (and 309, 112h, and 113) - 3 stack of #6-309 drags, working drag range to 10#'s, max drag 15#'s, damage to the brass gear sleeve at greater than 8#'s.

squidder 140L - 3 stack of #6-60 drags, working drag range to 8#'s, max drag range 12#'s, damage to the brass gear sleeve at 8#'s.

beachmaster155 - 3 stack of #6-155 drags, working drag range to 6#'s, max drag range 8#'s, damage to the brass gear sleeve at 8#'s.

now, when you talk about "there is a rating for getting the drag to slip and a continuous rating," your're taking about something i would call "start up," right? that's the amount of pull need to get the spool moving. as opposed the "drag setting" that is the amount of pull needed to keep it moving. well, start up can be zero, or it could be double. fouled drags have a very high "start up," greased drags have virtually no "start up" at all. i would want the "start up" to not exceed 10% of the drag setting. too much "start up" and you lose fish.

as for the amount of drag lost when you grease a drag, that would only be a factor if the travel of the "drag star" was limited. you can always crank down on the star a little more, or push the lever a little farther forward. if you lose 20% of drag pressure becaue of grease, but can turn the star down 20% more, it's a wash.

that being the case, let's look at the issue of "lock up." this is the point at which you tighten the star down so much that the drag washer locks and will not slip anymore. read drag failure. drag grease will help prevent "lock up" in the same way that it helps to prevent "start up." this is usually an issue when the drags are fouled and "lock up" at a low setting.

here is the take home message.....

drag grease extends your drag range by allowing the drags to function under greater pressure before they "lock up." more importantly, it reduces "start up" and risk of losing fish as a result.


dr. rob can more eloquently address the issue of "high speed run out." i consider this to be an issue that applies only to the most extreme situations. don't worry about the squidder!

and just out of curiosity, why do you ask?
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Old 04-05-2006, 04:39 AM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

Reel-Rascals - 4/4/2006 2:13 PM

I can only tell you that the brass gear sleeves will limit the maximum drag setting on the 4/0, Squidder, & Jigmaster reels. I bought the replacement stainless steel gear sleeve that Alan has made up and I’ve tested the drag on my 4/0 with one installed to put out > 20 pounds.

Now, would I want to fish it there continuously? No way, but I find much less “chatter” & "stutter" and it appears to be smoother (this is also a greased HT100 drag). Since I will set the drag to be 1/3rd the breaking strength of the line and will probably use 40# test, I figure the 4/0 reel will be more reliable with this new drag setup.

For your questions of reel drags and start-up inertia and effective drag capability, see here and there.
what is with these guys and their cork? i'm not, but most of my family is buddhist. fly fishing has always reminded me of zen. wierd stuff. i would love to switch out some of mr. blanton's cork drags for grease carbon fiber and watch his reaction.
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Old 04-05-2006, 06:12 AM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

alantani - 4/5/2006 4:39 AM

what is with these guys and their cork? i'm not, but most of my family is buddhist. fly fishing has always reminded me of zen. wierd stuff.
LOL!

i got into that whole scene on some of the trout streams of upstate new york way back in the day ... and if it was "zen" i guess it was our east coast version of zen ... instead of fly rods and cork drags, we used blasting caps and dynamite! no more worries with wind knots and tight loops ... and it works better than you might imagine!

and people say i'm not a "sportsman" or "conservationist." rubbish!
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Old 04-05-2006, 06:15 AM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

Alantani - That machinist friend of yours, he doesn't by any chance make stainless steel gear sleeves for the 114H reels, does he?
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Old 04-05-2006, 12:35 PM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

no, but you can get one at http://www.elec-tra-mate.com/gearsleeve.html
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Old 04-05-2006, 05:27 PM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

Thank you, Alan. Just ordered four at $25 each.

I'm wondering when someone's going to have a question that stumps you!
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Old 05-07-2006, 04:50 AM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

I fish for big sharks. Blacktips run especially fast. I have a Senator II 114H & 114HLW, & Daiwa 600H & 900H.Do all the gear sleeves need to be upgraded? Which drag grease do you recommend? & where do I get it?
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Old 05-07-2006, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

[QUOTE]capt crunch - 4/5/2006 Thank you, Alan. Just ordered four at $25 each.

I'm wondering when someone's going to have a question that stumps you! [/QUOTE


alan,

Please quote me the price of three day old cheese at Han's Deli in Amsterdam in Spanish Doubloons, based on the opening spot gold market price. in Timbucktu on May5,1732.
Thanks
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Old 05-07-2006, 10:11 PM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

i haven't seen a problem with the 6/0 senators, but brass is brass and these softer penn gear sleeves can round off given enough pressure. as for the daiwa gear sleeves, i've never seen a problem, ever. guess there's always a first time, but the daiwa's have held up pretty well.

for drag grease, i still used shimano star drag grease and you can get some by calling shimano at 877-577-0600, or check with your local shop. for cal's drag grease, go to smoothdrag.com.

jeff, when are you going to be back in the states?
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Old 05-07-2006, 11:16 PM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

capt crunch - 4/5/2006 4:27 PM

I'm wondering when someone's going to have a question that stumps you!
Alan,

This guy goes to a tackle store and desires to purchase a new reel. He has purchased only Penn reels to up this point, but he has heard great things about Shimano. Here is my question - what did this guy have for lunch yesterday?
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Old 05-08-2006, 12:52 AM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

sushi!

too much soy sauce and wasabi affects your hearing. he hears the "click, click, click" of a penn reel and it's starting to sound like "crick, crick, crick!" i recommend double bacon cheese burgers to clear up his hearing.
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Old 05-08-2006, 09:13 AM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

Tireless - 5/7/2006 11:16 PM

capt crunch - 4/5/2006 4:27 PM

I'm wondering when someone's going to have a question that stumps you!
Alan,

This guy goes to a tackle store and desires to purchase a new reel. He has purchased only Penn reels to up this point, but he has heard great things about Shimano. Here is my question - what did this guy have for lunch yesterday?
Actually I like Shimano reels very much! I just saw one at a tackle show that can not only retrieve a butterfly jig at 3000 feet per second ... but can also do so when that butterfly jig is hooked to a 200# YFT and is being retrieved by a 75-pound, 10-year-old kid!

More power and more speed in the same gear train! That's incredible! That's ... ridiculous!
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Old 05-08-2006, 11:52 AM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

I have 4 6/0's and all of them are fished the same way. Tighten star drag with hand as much as possible, smack with hammer, to make sure they are tight. Somewhere between 34# and 38# is about what I get. Only used for grouper/snapper bottom fishing, with 175# tuff-line braid. Haven't had any problems in 3 years, except the stupid clutch arm coming out, but a quick disassemble and you are back in business.

If I scuff up drag washers, can I get a little more pressure?? Anyother way to get a bit more pressure...belleviles etc
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Old 05-08-2006, 12:29 PM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

That's incredible! That's ... ridiculous!
thanks for the morning chuckle!!!!!!!!

william, sounds like you're getting as much drag out of the 6/0's as you're going to get. i'm surprised the reel even holds up under those kinds of loads. if you start noticing that the reel is loosening up over time, you might consider going to something heavier, like a penn international.

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Old 05-08-2006, 12:59 PM
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Default Re: Real world drag pressure

Alan, as always you've done your research. This is a great thread. Since my expertise is more in the area of spinners and fly reels here's a perspective on cork drags as they apply to big game fly reels (for fish over 100lbs...). Cork is really hard to beat in fly reels if it's installed and set up properly. The Billy Pate reels for example are almost bullet-proof. I have a Tarpon model that's beaten at least 100 big fish and the drag is no different now than when it was new... I think the reason that cork excels in fly reels is the size of the disc that you're able to use (it's much larger than a the surface area of all but the best lever drag reels that utilize all machined parts) and the actual spool revolutions are a bit slower (not certain of that, it's just my opinion). A quality saltwater fly reel with a cork drag should still be working properly when your kid is using it after you're no longer around....

As far as the difference in actual working drag setting between a full spool on a large spinning reel and that same spool when half the line is gone, there's a very real difference. I tell my anglers that the actual drag is almost doubled... that's a bit of an stretch but it keeps them from reaching to tighten that drag as their line disappears. The best demonstration of the difference is when you're winding new line on a spinner. When the spool is half full set the drag to as much pressure as your line will handle, then continue to load line. When the spool is full the difference in working drag pressure will be dramatic.

Like I said before. Great thread.
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Old 05-08-2006, 01:13 PM
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Default RE: Real world drag pressure

Alantani--Any idea what you would assume I am getting out of a Daiwa Saltiga 30, new? I have read 22lbs on a 40 saltiga. I'm running 65lb braid and want to make sure I can lock that sucker down to move a grouper off a wreck.

Thanks
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