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Closing of recreational flounder in NC

Old 07-09-2019, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Tossedabout View Post

being that I am an ichthyology major, my opinion differs greatly from yours. Most handled fish do not survive hooked or not. Especially if fought to exhaustion.
I told him not to handle it just snip the line. There is a fluke fisherman in Nj that has been tagging every fluke he catches with littoral society tags. He documents the size and condition if he leaves the hook in. He has been doing this for 20 years and he himself was surprised at how many of his gut hooked fish were caught years later when the tags were called in. I was game warden for 18 years and every time we found a short fluke and go the old"well it was gut hooked and died so I kept it" excuse the fishes head and gills were almost ripped off because the idiot tried to rip the ten cent hook out. Why dont you read the research on fluke release mortality. Im not a fish scientist but Ive read it. Fluke has a very high survival rate and they dont have much lactic acid buildup. Some species like striper do have a high release mortality (due to lactic acid) but you are incorrect in saying "most " I know of no species that over 50 % die after being handled. Its future scientist like you that scare the hell out of us fishermen.
This famous study came up with 13.7% release mortality of fluke
https://scholarworks.wm.edu/cgi/view...ontext=reports

Last edited by barrell; 07-09-2019 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:14 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by Tossedabout View Post

being that I am an ichthyology major, my opinion differs greatly from yours. Most handled fish do not survive hooked or not. Especially if fought to exhaustion.
And my degree is in Wildlife and Fisheries Science and what you say here is the simple truth regardless of whether or not that fish swims away looking just fine.
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken C View Post
And my degree is in Wildlife and Fisheries Science and what you say here is the simple truth regardless of whether or not that fish swims away looking just fine.
Show me the study. what species suffers release mortality of over 50 %. That concerns me and other fishermen because those estimates/wild guesses come out of our recreational quota .
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by barrell View Post
First- gut hooked fish survive if handled properly. Many tagging studies have shown that. When you cant see the hook cut it off immediately dont touch the fish ,crushing it while jamming pliers down its throat. Thats what kills the fish ,not the location of the hook.
Second- research shows that a limit is very rare. Most people just catch one or two. So biologist feel that generous limits don't really do anything negative. Size limits and seasons are the most powerful management tools
Yes most of the time I don't catch my limit either. I may end up killing a few undersize fish and basically kill two or three times my limit but I may just come home with one. Regulations are certainly called for but it's the number you remove from the population that is the most important, not the size. Most of the fish you catch will die whether you keep them or not. On many occasions I have gone out and caught 6-8 fish and not come home with a keeper. Chances are if the limit were 2 fish period, I would be doing less damage to the population. Especially when a beautiful 18" striper is a throwback?
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Old 07-09-2019, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken C View Post
Yes most of the time I don't catch my limit either. I may end up killing a few undersize fish and basically kill two or three times my limit but I may just come home with one. Regulations are certainly called for but it's the number you remove from the population that is the most important, not the size. Most of the fish you catch will die whether you keep them or not. On many occasions I have gone out and caught 6-8 fish and not come home with a keeper. Chances are if the limit were 2 fish period, I would be doing less damage to the population. Especially when a beautiful 18" stripper is a throwback?
Why do you say they all die? I fished fluke in Nj for 40 years and I can count on one hand the number of fluke I tossed that were clearly dead. Most took off for the bottom like a bat out of hell.
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Old 07-09-2019, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Tossedabout View Post



i know a guy thatís the same way. Gig 20-50 a night. Itís not the Gigging Iím so against . It is the ridiculous amount of fish these guys take. There are gig boat charters even.

If they Clorse down recreation but leave comm open. I will continue to keep them. When comm. closes and I confirm that it has closed. I wonít flounder fish anymore.

Im ok with a true and fair closure to help stocks rebound. We can all give a little.
Another THT poacher.
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:03 AM
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Originally Posted by barrell View Post
Show me the study. what species suffers release mortality of over 50 %. That concerns me and other fishermen because those estimates/wild guesses come out of our recreational quota .
The attached study it was 43%. However, the study performed in NY (with striped bass and shad) had all the participants go through a training on just how to dehook and transfer fish to live wells carefully, even using gloves and not handling the fish. They were transferred to pens and held 5 days to determine if they would live. That is unrealistic and not what happens in the real world. Controls also had mortality so overall the mortality was less than 43% when corrected but still significant. Now go to the real world where fishermen usually want their hook and pictures taken so the number would be significantly higher. I am also factoring in the fact I'm talking about the chesapeake bay with lower salinity and higher water temperatures which also makes it more difficult for the fish to recover. This time of year in the Chesapeake a striped bass stands little chance of recovery and the carcasses floating is another testament to that fact.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/240...d78fd581e1.pdf
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Old 07-10-2019, 03:16 AM
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Originally Posted by barrell View Post
Why do you say they all die? I fished fluke in Nj for 40 years and I can count on one hand the number of fluke I tossed that were clearly dead. Most took off for the bottom like a bat out of hell.
That is no testament to their survival. Especially in the shallow waters of the Barnegat Bay (if thats where you were). Infection from the wounds will still take their toll and that swimming like a "bat out of hell" might have been adrenaline speaking. Certainly many fish will survive but catching a dozen fish and returning 10 of them because they were undersize does not mean you only removed 2 from the population. The population would have been better served if you kept the first two regardless of size. The most prolific breeders are your bigger fish, why have a regulation that says you can only remove the prolific breeders if you are concerned with the population?
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken C View Post
The attached study it was 43%. However, the study performed in NY (with striped bass and shad) had all the participants go through a training on just how to dehook and transfer fish to live wells carefully, even using gloves and not handling the fish. They were transferred to pens and held 5 days to determine if they would live. That is unrealistic and not what happens in the real world. Controls also had mortality so overall the mortality was less than 43% when corrected but still significant. Now go to the real world where fishermen usually want their hook and pictures taken so the number would be significantly higher. I am also factoring in the fact I'm talking about the chesapeake bay with lower salinity and higher water temperatures which also makes it more difficult for the fish to recover. This time of year in the Chesapeake a striped bass stands little chance of recovery and the carcasses floating is another testament to that fact.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/240...d78fd581e1.pdf
Thank you for the link however this thread is about Fluke not striped bass and shad. The study you post in from a enclosed hot and polluted bay that has been suffering from low recruitment for decades. The study you posted refers to earlier studies;

The 8.0 % hooking mortality rate for striped bass of Diodati and Richards (1996) issimilar to the 7.3% (artificial lures) and 5.3% (live bait) estimates of Nelson (1998). Diodatiand Richards (1996) employed a58-day observation period, whereas Nelson (1998) observed fishfor only 3 days after capture. Employing a 2-week observation period, Harrell (1987) reported ahooking mortality rate for striped bass of 4% (artificial) and 6% (bait) in October, and 2%(artificial) and 0% (bait) in February.

Which showed from ZERO to 8% catch and release of striped bass. Striped bass I already agreed in a post above suffer from a long fight in warm oxegen deprived water. You have failed to back up your original argument that Flounder suffer over 50% release fatality rate . And you attempted to make that argument using a cherry picked study on striped bass. Thats isnt very scientific. Feels more political to me. On top of all the "fake news" this is all based on highly questionable boat ramp interviews done by part time federal employees who dont know anything about fishing. I have been interviewed by them and they kept trying to put words in my mouth during the interview and I kept telling them" No,not that is not what I said." The surveyors either from lack of fishing knowledge or outright anti fishing agenda have proven to me that the estimates of catch and release they come up with should not be used for science. We need a app that we report on. That would eliminate the prejudices that are being injected into the process by the unqualified federal surveyors.

The Op wants to know why his fluke fishery has been suddenly shut down in North Carolina. Show us a study proving over 50% catch and release fluke mortality (as you declared above) or crawl back under you rug.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by barrell View Post
Thank you for the link however this thread is about Fluke not striped bass and shad. The study you post in from a enclosed hot and polluted bay that has been suffering from low recruitment for decades. The study you posted refers to earlier studies;

The 8.0 % hooking mortality rate for striped bass of Diodati and Richards (1996) issimilar to the 7.3% (artificial lures) and 5.3% (live bait) estimates of Nelson (1998). Diodatiand Richards (1996) employed a58-day observation period, whereas Nelson (1998) observed fishfor only 3 days after capture. Employing a 2-week observation period, Harrell (1987) reported ahooking mortality rate for striped bass of 4% (artificial) and 6% (bait) in October, and 2%(artificial) and 0% (bait) in February.

Which showed from ZERO to 8% catch and release of striped bass. Striped bass I already agreed in a post above suffer from a long fight in warm oxegen deprived water. You have failed to back up your original argument that Flounder suffer over 50% release fatality rate . And you attempted to make that argument using a cherry picked study on striped bass. Thats isnt very scientific. Feels more political to me. On top of all the "fake news" this is all based on highly questionable boat ramp interviews done by part time federal employees who dont know anything about fishing. I have been interviewed by them and they kept trying to put words in my mouth during the interview and I kept telling them" No,not that is not what I said." The surveyors either from lack of fishing knowledge or outright anti fishing agenda have proven to me that the estimates of catch and release they come up with should not be used for science. We need a app that we report on. That would eliminate the prejudices that are being injected into the process by the unqualified federal surveyors.

The Op wants to know why his fluke fishery has been suddenly shut down in North Carolina. Show us a study proving over 50% catch and release fluke mortality (as you declared above) or crawl back under you rug.
It wasn't cherry picked and you are right it wasn't using flounder in NC. That does not change the fact that a significant number of released fish do not survive and that population numbers would be better served by limiting the number of fish caught and not the size. Also nothing in the cited study relied on "boat interviews", it was entirely scientific.
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Old 07-10-2019, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken C View Post
And my degree is in Wildlife and Fisheries Science and what you say here is the simple truth regardless of whether or not that fish swims away looking just fine.
You supported a false statement made above that more then half of released fluke die. You have not retracted that statement. Yet you have no proof. That is not science. That is you and other fisheries scientist injecting your personal opinion into science. Used to be a no-no but its the reason the Ops fishery was closed and it needs to be addressed. Science needs to get back to the scientific method. At least we agree on one thing. The striper netting in Chesapeake bay needs to stop. But that has nothing to do with this thread about Fluke.
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