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Unlicensed Charters/ What exactly is it?

Old 06-12-2019, 04:08 PM
  #101  
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I believe what we're seeing here in South Florida is a "boat rental". If the owner of the boat rents you the boat for a half day and the renter actually "drives" the boat while the owner of the boat watches over the renter then supposedly it's not a charter. These are generally not fishing or offshore trips but more like rides to the sandbar and lots of drinking, mostly college kids on vacation. Not sure if it's truly illegal or not but I hope they can stop it before somebody gets seriously injured or killed. It is certainly a dangerous situation and just one more of the aberrant behaviors we have to deal with.

As an aside, we also are seeing more of the "boating instruction" scams happening. If a guy with a boat takes a "student" out and teaches him how to undock, dock, set an anchor, etc., is that chartering? Does the "instructor" have to have a captain's license?
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Old 06-12-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Fiberglass1 Inc View Post
If a guy with a boat takes a "student" out and teaches him how to undock, dock, set an anchor, etc., is that chartering? Does the "instructor" have to have a captain's license?
In common parlance, that would not be chartering, but the reg doesn't concern itself with chartering, but rather taking passengers for hire (as that is defined). If the "student" is required to pay the boat owner to ride on his boat, the "student" becomes a passenger for hire, with licensing ramifications for the "instructor," no matter what they do onboard.
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Old 06-12-2019, 05:36 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Pez Vela View Post
In common parlance, that would not be chartering, but the reg doesn't concern itself with chartering, but rather taking passengers for hire (as that is defined). If the "student" is required to pay the boat owner to ride on his boat, the "student" becomes a passenger for hire, with licensing ramifications for the "instructor," no matter what they do onboard.
Read again^^^^^^ up here

What is so hard for people to understand.

If you are required to pay anything for consideration of carriage on any vessel it becomes a charter.

If anything is required for that consideration/ not just cash, it is a charter. Blow jobs included if required as a consideration for carriage.

If you volunteer to smoke rope for a boat ride your Captain needs no credentials as long as he didn't require it.

All the more reason to have your OUPV. You then can legally require payment in any form/consideration from up to 6 passengers on a uninspected passenger vessel.
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Old 06-13-2019, 02:15 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by 20biminitwist View Post
Read again^^^^^^ up here

What is so hard for people to understand.

If you are required to pay anything for consideration of carriage on any vessel it becomes a charter.

If anything is required for that consideration/ not just cash, it is a charter. Blow jobs included if required as a consideration for carriage.

If you volunteer to smoke rope for a boat ride your Captain needs no credentials as long as he didn't require it.

All the more reason to have your OUPV. You then can legally require payment in any form/consideration from up to 6 passengers on a uninspected passenger vessel.
You are beating a dead horse. Truthfully, nobody except you really cares about your nomenclature. 98% of the comments describe splitting expenses at the end of the trip. You seem to be dwelling on this.
Are you really hurting for business that badly?
Let LEO take care of the unscrupulous activities.
Why do you feel so compelled to police the waters and this thread? Your analogies are revealing your fatigue. You're beginning to sound desperate and grumpy.
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:59 AM
  #105  
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this thread is bs I own my boat I usually supply the bait & ice we all bring our own food & drink but usually share & at the end of the trip we refuel the boat & split that expense my tuna permit is recreational & absolutely nothing about my boat is a for hire charter. this sounds like something drummed up by a starving charter boat captain
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Old 06-13-2019, 04:58 AM
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Originally Posted by sydngoose View Post
You are beating a dead horse. Truthfully, nobody except you really cares about your nomenclature. 98% of the comments describe splitting expenses at the end of the trip. You seem to be dwelling on this.
Are you really hurting for business that badly?
Let LEO take care of the unscrupulous activities.
Why do you feel so compelled to police the waters and this thread? Your analogies are revealing your fatigue. You're beginning to sound desperate and grumpy.
Not hurting for business at all and I certainly ain't starving. Thinking about retiring from the offshore scene soon and can any time I want. Kick back and just run some inshore trips with a lot less headaches.

I do no policing either so your wrong on both accounts.

Trying to explain what is legal and what is not is fatiguing when some peoples reading comprehension is so poor.

I have said many times in this thread the voluntary sharing of expenses is perfectly legal, happens every day and the USCG ain't out looking for people that are doing this.

You say you have no skin in the game so good on you. Why are you spouting off over and over then?

And, you can bet the legal operators will turn dime on the obvious folks who are operating illegally. Happens in every profession everyday. People who make their living legally turn dime on people who are essentially stealing business from them by not having the expenses that come with operating a legal business. They are commonly called scam artist, jack legs and a host of other things. The requirements are in place to protect the consumer. Go look at post 83 and tell me which operations there are legit. Some may be some may be not but similar operations have been responsible for injuries and deaths recently. One illegal operator just held his party captive here in another thread. I bet they wish someone had turned his ass in.

They are a prime example of whats going on and its not good for those in the industry doing it right.

So, carry on with your assumptions!
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:29 AM
  #107  
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bimini your literal interpretation of the law is ignorant

so if I help a friend move with my truck & he buys me a burger & cold beer for lunch & fills my truck with gas at the end of the day & we drove 56 in a 55. & I my truck has a burnt out tag light I'm a unlicensed furniture mover operating defective equipment and guilty of dwi & speeding and o yea I had no cash on my person so I'm guilty of vagrancy as well dude you need to get a life & relax

not to be rude but if your mind can't differentiate between some friends splitting the expense on a recreational trip verses a for hire charter you need to cut back on the caffeine or something
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Last edited by Timex; 06-13-2019 at 07:35 AM. Reason: c
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Old 06-13-2019, 07:17 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Timex View Post
bimini your literal interpretation of the law is ignorant

so if I help a friend move with my truck & he buys me a burger & cold beer for lunch & fills my truck with gas at the end of the day & we drove 59 in a 55. & I my truck has a burnt out liscens plate light I'm a unlicensed furniture mover operating defective equipment and guilty of dui & speeding and o yea I had no cash on my person so I'm guilty of vagrancy as well dude you need to get a life & relax

not to be rude but if your mind can't differentiate between some friends splitting the expense on a recreational trip verses a for hire charter you need to cut back on the caffeine or something
Talk about ignorant!

See my post above and read carefully.
I have said many times in this thread the voluntary sharing of expenses is perfectly legal, happens every day and the USCG ain't out looking for people that are doing this.
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Old 06-21-2019, 11:15 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Re-Bait View Post
A. I never have and never will EVER be close to this rule. My ride is strictly PRIVATEER!

B. But just wondering.

C. I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. Sorry if this is the umpteenth time it's mention lol!!

The United States Coast Guard (USCG) is currently investigating and issuing violations to owners of vessels offering unlicensed charter services in the states of New Jersey and Delaware.

Hiring an unlicensed charter is dangerous because it may not have the proper emergency safety gear, may not have the proper navigation and communication gear, and may not have undergone the proper license exams and inspections, which are put in place to ensure passenger safety.

ďPeople paying to take an excursion on the water deserve safe vessels operated by properly licensed individuals,Ē said Capt. Scott Anderson, Commanding Officer of Coast Guard Sector Delaware Bay.

ďVessel operators who skirt the regulations undercut legitimate licensed operators and put their passengers at risk. Paying customers can play a key role in keeping our waters safe by asking to see a license before departing, and they can ask to see the inspection sticker if vessels are carrying more than six passengers,Ē Capt. Anderson added.

Unlicensed vessel operators may not be aware that using their boat to take members of the public out for hire is illegal and may view it as a way to supplement income; however it is against the law.

Anyone considering chartering or operating their vessel with passengers for hire should contact Sector Delaware Bay Marine Inspections at 215-908-9827 or DomesticVessels@uscg.mil to discuss how regulations apply to you.

In accordance with Title 46 U.S. Code ß 4106, if a vessel is operated in violation of applicable laws and regulations, the owner, charterer, managing operator, agent, master and individual in charge may be liable for a civil penalty up to $10,519 per violation per day.

USCG urges the fishing and boating community to remain vigilant and report any suspicious operations to 215-271-4807 or email PhillyIO@uscg.mil.
I've read stories about licensed charter capts breaking the rules by allowing a non licensed capts to run their boat on a charter. I also know of at least one capt who "only charges for gas" for fishing charters. Either way the law is being broken. This seems pretty cut and dry, ask for money and you don't have a license, it's illegal. I am glad the USGC is cracking down on this stuff.
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Old 06-21-2019, 11:41 AM
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I know plenty of guys who bring friends and friends of friends on fishing trips. They ask for gas money... I know this is technically illegal... but I donít see a problem with it and I believe most people agree(except Bimini)... same as going 60mph in a 55... who cares..?


just so I am clear
i know itís technically illegal..
I donít care..

also , I donít do it.. no one pays on my boat. But, if the only way I could afford a $1000 tuna trip was to collect gas money, I would...
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Old 06-21-2019, 04:07 PM
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ďjust so I am clear
i know itís technically illegal..
I donít care..Ē

well summed up.

thx
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Old 06-21-2019, 05:42 PM
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So do I make my friends pay me before or after the trip? Someone please clarify.
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Old 06-21-2019, 07:02 PM
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The first rule of fight club.......
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Old 06-21-2019, 09:52 PM
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This post is just so ridiculous. The rule is clear. You are chartering if you charge passengers to go out on your boat to fish in a business enterprise intended to make money. If you are splitting the expenses of the fishing trip with your "friends" who are "voluntarily" contributing to these costs, then you are not chartering. You need a 6 pack license and required equipment and training for the former, and you don't for the latter.

The Coast Guard is not interested in semantics like Biminitwist seems to think -- the Coasties don't give a damn if the "voluntary" contribution of your friend is really an agreed upon condition of his going -- i.e., if he doesn't agree to voluntarily contribute his share of the expenses, he ain't going (or he certainly is not going next time). That's complete nonsense. No judge would ever find a captain guilty of illegally chartering for saying to his friends "I'll take you guys offshore tuna fishing but you've got to split the expenses with me." That's just stupid.

Now some guys without a license may try to game the system by taking a bunch of strangers on a trip and have them "voluntarily" contribute to the expenses when he's really running an illegal charter. Unless the captain is making money on the trip, it's kind of tough for the Coasties to prove the case, and I doubt there's much of an enforcement push unless the captain is egregious in his advertisements for the trips or "contributions" he's extracting.

In the ordinary shared expense trip among friends or acquaintances, a captain needn't worry -- at least in this old attorney's mind.
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Old 06-22-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by mikie View Post
I believe the circumstances with the Insurance Co would be completely different for taking a neighbor's kid for a boat ride or charging the family to take them on a charter(such as insisting that they pay you for fuel). I also believe that your statement about the guy "owing " you $80 for fuel when you invited him for a boat ride definitely could come back a bite you. The rules are pretty clear, the USCG monitors this site, and you're not illegal until you get caught. Carry on and have a nice day.
As an addendum, the reason people run illegal charters is because they don't want to go through the hassle and expense of getting a license, drug testing, commercial equipment to make the boat compliant, commercial insurance, etc., etc., etc..
If itís illegal to split fuel costs, then the government can kiss my ass, so can my insurance company.

If if itís that illegal, when my buddy cuts his leg open and is bleeding over the deck, we will ditch the body.

Yall need to relax. Itís fine to split fuel, bait, costs. everyone in the world is doing it literally right now.

If you have a question call your insurance provider not the idiots here on THT.
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Old 06-28-2019, 09:26 AM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by jillybird View Post
This post is just so ridiculous. The rule is clear. You are chartering if you charge passengers to go out on your boat to fish in a business enterprise intended to make money. If you are splitting the expenses of the fishing trip with your "friends" who are "voluntarily" contributing to these costs, then you are not chartering. You need a 6 pack license and required equipment and training for the former, and you don't for the latter.

The Coast Guard is not interested in semantics like Biminitwist seems to think -- the Coasties don't give a damn if the "voluntary" contribution of your friend is really an agreed upon condition of his going -- i.e., if he doesn't agree to voluntarily contribute his share of the expenses, he ain't going (or he certainly is not going next time). That's complete nonsense. No judge would ever find a captain guilty of illegally chartering for saying to his friends "I'll take you guys offshore tuna fishing but you've got to split the expenses with me." That's just stupid.

Now some guys without a license may try to game the system by taking a bunch of strangers on a trip and have them "voluntarily" contribute to the expenses when he's really running an illegal charter. Unless the captain is making money on the trip, it's kind of tough for the Coasties to prove the case, and I doubt there's much of an enforcement push unless the captain is egregious in his advertisements for the trips or "contributions" he's extracting.

In the ordinary shared expense trip among friends or acquaintances, a captain needn't worry -- at least in this old attorney's mind.
Well Jilly, did you read this entire thread and count how many times I stated the voluntary sharing of the expenses among friends is perfectly legal.

What semantics are you referring to?

You want to know what an Illegal charter is look no further than this latest of many reported by the FWC.
I didn't have to wait very long for another one. This guy is toast and has a Captains license. He tried to skirt the federal permit for hire deal under the premise of 500 bucks for gas, bait and ice. You ask for it from strangers this it what it can get Ya! He is looking at fines that could exceed 10K.

Just another form of Illegal charters.

FWC Weekly reports

Officer Alvis, Officer Hughes, Officer Godfrey, Officer Specialist Smith, and Lieutenant Wells were on a multiday patrol aboard the Gulf Sentry. They stopped a fishing vessel approximately forty nautical miles off Egmont Key and found a bag of cannabis floating directly behind the boat. Six people were on the vessel plus the captain. No one would admit to the cannabis. After questioning, it was determined the passengers paid the captain $500.00 for only bait, ice, and gas. The captain did not possess a Gulf of Mexico Charter/Head boat reef fish permit. A federal citation was issued, and the case will be turned over to NOAA. The charter captain also could not produce any documents that proved he belonged to a drug consortium per USCG Captain License regulations. This will be referred to USCG investigations.

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Old 06-28-2019, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AttaBOY_fishing View Post
So do I make my friends pay me before or after the trip? Someone please clarify.
Before or after, it doesn't matter. You're not going to get a ticket either way. The coast guard doesn't care about you splitting gas or bait before or after the trip.
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Old 06-28-2019, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by 20biminitwist View Post
Well Jilly, did you read this entire thread and count how many times I stated the voluntary sharing of the expenses among friends is perfectly legal.

What semantics are you referring to?

You want to know what an Illegal charter is look no further than this latest of many reported by the FWC.
I didn't have to wait very long for another one. This guy is toast and has a Captains license. He tried to skirt the federal permit for hire deal under the premise of 500 bucks for gas, bait and ice. You ask for it from strangers this it what it can get Ya! He is looking at fines that could exceed 10K.

Just another form of Illegal charters.

FWC Weekly reports

Officer Alvis, Officer Hughes, Officer Godfrey, Officer Specialist Smith, and Lieutenant Wells were on a multiday patrol aboard the Gulf Sentry. They stopped a fishing vessel approximately forty nautical miles off Egmont Key and found a bag of cannabis floating directly behind the boat. Six people were on the vessel plus the captain. No one would admit to the cannabis. After questioning, it was determined the passengers paid the captain $500.00 for only bait, ice, and gas. The captain did not possess a Gulf of Mexico Charter/Head boat reef fish permit. A federal citation was issued, and the case will be turned over to NOAA. The charter captain also could not produce any documents that proved he belonged to a drug consortium per USCG Captain License regulations. This will be referred to USCG investigations.
I think the moral of the story here is that if you are going to toss weed overboard at least tie a weight to it.
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Old 06-28-2019, 10:46 AM
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Iím sure some of you have to pay people to go with you as no one would
put up with your crazy rules. Which opens up another can of worms.

What about when the tournament crew splits winnings?
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Old 06-28-2019, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Slamdancer View Post
I’m sure some of you have to pay people to go with you as no one would
put up with your crazy rules. Which opens up another can of worms.

What about when the tournament crew splits winnings?
The thread was titled this,Unlicensed Charters/ What exactly is it?



Ain't my rules and you guys are really slow at reading and comprehending.
A few get it and a few don't!

I doubt many of you that commented have read the entire thread from the start.

This has nothing to do with splitting winnings. If you win you will get a 1099 or other arrangements before hand.

That has nothing to do with an illegal charter.

Read the FWC report I posted real slow so you can understand it. It is an example of an Illegal charter!

FOR MAYBE THE TENTH TIME NOW I WILL SAY AGAIN, VOLUNTARY SHARING OF EXPENSES IS TOTALLY LEGAL.

This is not!

Officer Alvis, Officer Hughes, Officer Godfrey, Officer Specialist Smith, and Lieutenant Wells were on a multiday patrol aboard the Gulf Sentry. They stopped a fishing vessel approximately forty nautical miles off Egmont Key and found a bag of cannabis floating directly behind the boat. Six people were on the vessel plus the captain. No one would admit to the cannabis. After questioning, it was determined the passengers paid the captain $500.00 for only bait, ice, and gas. The captain did not possess a Gulf of Mexico Charter/Head boat reef fish permit. A federal citation was issued, and the case will be turned over to NOAA. The charter captain also could not produce any documents that proved he belonged to a drug consortium per USCG Captain License regulations. This will be referred to USCG investigations.
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