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Unlicensed Charters/ What exactly is it?

Old 06-04-2019, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sydngoose View Post
You are factually incorrect and not even logical. If I take my neighbors child out for a boat ride and he falls down and slices his leg open, bleeding all over the deck and sues me, that has nothing to do with money changing hands. That's why we carry liability insurance even for recreational fishing.
For a boat owner taking 4 guys fishing and splitting the fuel 4 or 5 ways is nowhere close to the definition of chartering. And yes, I REQUIRE anyone fishing on my boat to pitch in for fuel ( except their 1st time fishing w/ me, then it's my treat). If someone refuses to assist in fuel cost, they don't get invited again.
This happened to me in a fishing tournament 3 years ago. 4 guys on my boat. We all pay our share of the tournament entry fee. One dude leaves at the end of the day w/ out paying for fuel. I see him around. I see his facebook posts of his fishing: every time I see him, I think to myself "dude still owes me $80 for the fuel on that tourney day". I have never asked him for a dollar since that day. But, he won't fish w/ me again.
I believe the circumstances with the Insurance Co would be completely different for taking a neighbor's kid for a boat ride or charging the family to take them on a charter(such as insisting that they pay you for fuel). I also believe that your statement about the guy "owing " you $80 for fuel when you invited him for a boat ride definitely could come back a bite you. The rules are pretty clear, the USCG monitors this site, and you're not illegal until you get caught. Carry on and have a nice day.
As an addendum, the reason people run illegal charters is because they don't want to go through the hassle and expense of getting a license, drug testing, commercial equipment to make the boat compliant, commercial insurance, etc., etc., etc..

Last edited by mikie; 06-04-2019 at 03:52 PM.
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Old 06-04-2019, 04:04 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by mikie View Post
I believe the circumstances with the Insurance Co would be completely different for taking a neighbor's kid for a boat ride or charging the family to take them on a charter(such as insisting that they pay you for fuel). I also believe that your statement about the guy "owing " you $80 for fuel when you invited him for a boat ride definitely could come back a bite you. The rules are pretty clear, the USCG monitors this site, and you're not illegal until you get caught. Carry on and have a nice day.
I didn't invite anyone for a boat ride. I boat ride with my wife and kids. When I fish a tournament, you better believe everyone on that boat pays equal shares of the cost of the day. If the USCG wants to write me a citation for me splitting fuel costs at the end of the day, I double triple dare them. In fact, if anyone on this sight gets a citation for splitting fuel costs at the end of the day, I will personally pay your fine. Come back to bite me ? Not hardly.

I also take issue with your last statement " you're not illegal until you get caught". That is a warped sense of right and wrong. Using your logic ( and that extends to your take on this charter matter) one could go out and rob a liquor store at gunpoint, and its not illegal until you get caught. You see now how your conclusions are illogical?
I fish legally. My boats are always legal. I make sure my crew have fishing licenses. I only take legal fish, and everyone chips in for boat fuel.
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Old 06-04-2019, 04:20 PM
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Sleep well, my friend, and don't worry.
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Old 06-04-2019, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by mikie View Post
Sleep well, my friend, and don't worry.
10/4 you too, Mikie.
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Old 06-04-2019, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by sydngoose View Post
You are factually incorrect and not even logical. If I take my neighbors child out for a boat ride and he falls down and slices his leg open, bleeding all over the deck and sues me, that has nothing to do with money changing hands. That's why we carry liability insurance even for recreational fishing.
For a boat owner taking 4 guys fishing and splitting the fuel 4 or 5 ways is nowhere close to the definition of chartering. And yes, I REQUIRE anyone fishing on my boat to pitch in for fuel ( except their 1st time fishing w/ me, then it's my treat). If someone refuses to assist in fuel cost, they don't get invited again.
This happened to me in a fishing tournament 3 years ago. 4 guys on my boat. We all pay our share of the tournament entry fee. One dude leaves at the end of the day w/ out paying for fuel. I see him around. I see his facebook posts of his fishing: every time I see him, I think to myself "dude still owes me $80 for the fuel on that tourney day". I have never asked him for a dollar since that day. But, he won't fish w/ me again.
You spelled it out plane and simple and really contradicted yourself.

How does he owe you shit if you didn't ask for or require it.

Yea, you said it. "he owes me". Another face book illegal charter on you!

WHEN YOU REQUIRE Payment YOUR FOR HIRE DUMB ASS! AND, PLEASE DON'T BRING THE WORD PROFIT INTO IT.

Call your insurance company and tell them you take at random your new found/solicited friends and REQUIRE they pay you. Better yet, tell the USCG.

You may convince yourself with this BS but I doubt you will have a leg to stand on when the shit hits the fan.

Whens your next trip? I know a guy that would like to come along for 80 bucks a head. Beats the legal for hire head boat trips around here on price.

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Old 06-05-2019, 03:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 20biminitwist View Post
You spelled it out plane and simple and really contradicted yourself.

How does he owe you shit if you didn't ask for or require it.

Yea, you said it. "he owes me". Another face book illegal charter on you!

WHEN YOU REQUIRE Payment YOUR FOR HIRE DUMB ASS! AND, PLEASE DON'T BRING THE WORD PROFIT INTO IT.

Call your insurance company and tell them you take at random your new found/solicited friends and REQUIRE they pay you. Better yet, tell the USCG.

You may convince yourself with this BS but I doubt you will have a leg to stand on when the shit hits the fan.

Whens your next trip? I know a guy that would like to come along for 80 bucks a head. Beats the legal for hire head boat trips around here on price.

Why does my opinion make you so angry? Calling me dumbass because I split fuel costs with my crew?
You wrote:
"call your insurance company and tell them you take at random your new found/ solicited friends and REQUIRE they pay you. Better yet, tell the USCG."

Where did you read that I take "new found/ solicited friends" anywhere? I fish with about 7 guys in a rotation. I don't fish with strangers. These are my fishing buddies, offshore sport fishing club members, people I see twice a month. It is common practice amoungst all of us to split fuel costs at the end of a fishing day.
If you are referring to the one guy who stiffed me on a tourney day, I know him personally as well: nice guy, super friendly.... just didn't think it was important to pony up his share of the fuel costs. Charter? Pffft.... come on. Get off your bandwagon and find a noble cause to get behind... splitting fuel costs amongst dirty fisherman after filleting fish? Oh no, send the calvary....
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by sydngoose View Post
Why does my opinion make you so angry? Calling me dumbass because I split fuel costs with my crew?
You wrote:
"call your insurance company and tell them you take at random your new found/ solicited friends and REQUIRE they pay you. Better yet, tell the USCG."

Where did you read that I take "new found/ solicited friends" anywhere? I fish with about 7 guys in a rotation. I don't fish with strangers. These are my fishing buddies, offshore sport fishing club members, people I see twice a month. It is common practice amoungst all of us to split fuel costs at the end of a fishing day.
If you are referring to the one guy who stiffed me on a tourney day, I know him personally as well: nice guy, super friendly.... just didn't think it was important to pony up his share of the fuel costs. Charter? Pffft.... come on. Get off your bandwagon and find a noble cause to get behind... splitting fuel costs amongst dirty fisherman after filleting fish? Oh no, send the calvary....
Your changing your story line a little. My first comment about this on this thread clearly states buddies sharing trip expenses is perfectly legal.
The sharing must be voluntary.
Your wording indicated the guy owes you 80 bucks. I don't care if it's your office buddies, neighbors, facebook or fishing club you can not ask for 80 bucks a head to put a trip together.

"Get off your bandwagon and find a noble cause to get behind... splitting fuel costs amongst dirty fisherman after filleting fish? Oh no, send the calvary.."

Never said it was. I take friends fishing not for hire plenty. They all have boats and we have been friends for many years. Seldom do we ever split the fuel. You go on my boat this time I got the fuel. We will take yours next time and you buy. On occasion a friend of a friend and non boat owner may get invited. Sometimes they will offer to throw in for fuel, if they do they get asked to go again sometime. If they don't maybe they won't.
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:35 AM
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My story line never nor will ever change: if you fish with me, you split fuel costs. Period. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
When I say “require” that translates to: at the end of the day, I take my gallons burned multiplied by $/ gallon, divide by the number of people on the boat. Each participant pays their share of fuel costs.
if someone elects not to pay, they don’t get invited again. I don’t sue them. I don’t publically humiliate them on social media, I don’t go to their place of work and garnish their wages. It’s simple: common courtesy.
why is this concept so hard for you to grasp? It’s not rocket science. Nor is it chartering. Geesh. I’m done wasting my time deducing logic with you. My 6 year old son gets it. Why don’t you?
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Old 06-05-2019, 06:28 AM
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"When I say “require” that translates to: at the end of the day, I take my gallons burned multiplied by $/ gallon, divide by the number of people on the boat. Each participant pays their share of fuel costs."

Well, now that you "translated" what "require" means when "you" say it, I can understand.

Your 6 year old is pretty sharp.

Glad you cleared that up in your translation.
My bad for thinking if I am "required" to bring money with me to pay for fuel or I ain't going. Does that mean I am "required" to volunteer?.

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Old 06-05-2019, 06:31 AM
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Let's think about this...

Are you asking for money to SPLIT EXPENSES BEFORE YOU LEAVE?

Or are you asking for money to SPLIT EXPENSES WHEN YOU GET BACK TO THE FUEL DOCK SAFELY?


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Old 06-05-2019, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by HookMeUpII View Post
Let's think about this...

Are you asking for money to SPLIT EXPENSES BEFORE YOU LEAVE?

Or are you asking for money to SPLIT EXPENSES WHEN YOU GET BACK TO THE FUEL DOCK SAFELY?
He isn't asking he is requiring!

This is all good with some buddies if they are just gonna make a trip and all agree to help out with fuel at the end of the day. He is confusing this with what has become a common place thing on social media saying to strangers lets go fishing, you need to bring 100 bucks a person to cover fuel.

This is where the USCG is stepping up enforcement. Any requirement is not voluntary. It is a condition of carriage which is not legal without credentials.

I think we need a lesson from the dictionary. Require and Volunteer are key words that some may need to look up.

I have in 25 years of chartering never heard of buddies having an issue.
I have in the last several year seen and been involved in these share a ride scams. NOAA runs stings on them from time to time and the fines are mind blowing. Especially bad in federal waters of the GOM where for hire reef permits are needed. They board a boat playing games and separate and scare the shit out of the new found buddies during the boarding someone is going to roll dime and your ass is toast.

The fines can often exceed 10 K
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 20biminitwist View Post
He isn't asking he is requiring!

This is all good with some buddies if they are just gonna make a trip and all agree to help out with fuel at the end of the day. He is confusing this with what has become a common place thing on social media saying to strangers lets go fishing, you need to bring 100 bucks a person to cover fuel.

This is where the USCG is stepping up enforcement. Any requirement is not voluntary. It is a condition of carriage which is not legal without credentials.

I think we need a lesson from the dictionary. Require and Volunteer are key words that some may need to look up.

I have in 25 years of chartering never heard of buddies having an issue.
I have in the last several year seen and been involved in these share a ride scams. NOAA runs stings on them from time to time and the fines are mind blowing. Especially bad in federal waters of the GOM where for hire reef permits are needed. They board a boat playing games and separate and scare the shit out of the new found buddies during the boarding someone is going to roll dime and your ass is toast.

The fines can often exceed 10 K
Well, I'm not sure what Dave is implying or not implying. However, what I will say is this:

- Yes, bad practice to advertise on social media "Need 4 guys @ $100 each lets go fishing!"
- A lot of it boils down to your fishing buddy circle. Most guys understand it costs money to fish. I will lose 0 sleep at night taking a $100 bill from a fishing buddy back at the dock (which is how it usually goes).
- Never take money before leaving the dock.
- God forbid someone gets injured...DO NOT take any money.
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 20biminitwist View Post
He isn't asking he is requiring!

This is all good with some buddies if they are just gonna make a trip and all agree to help out with fuel at the end of the day. He is confusing this with what has become a common place thing on social media saying to strangers lets go fishing, you need to bring 100 bucks a person to cover fuel.

This is where the USCG is stepping up enforcement. Any requirement is not voluntary. It is a condition of carriage which is not legal without credentials.

I think we need a lesson from the dictionary. Require and Volunteer are key words that some may need to look up.

I have in 25 years of chartering never heard of buddies having an issue.
I have in the last several year seen and been involved in these share a ride scams. NOAA runs stings on them from time to time and the fines are mind blowing. Especially bad in federal waters of the GOM where for hire reef permits are needed. They board a boat playing games and separate and scare the shit out of the new found buddies during the boarding someone is going to roll dime and your ass is toast.

The fines can often exceed 10 K

WTF are you even talking about? let me make it even clearer for you as you seem to struggle with comprehending my words. NEVER once in my life have I ever elicited any fishing partners/ crew/ strangers to come on my boat whether from social media, craigslist advert, anywhere anytime. Where that thought came into your head is beyond me. I don't have to beg people to fish with me. I have a list as long as I want. I regularly decline friends, clients, employees, neighbors, people who know me from fishing trips. I can call 18 people on any given day and have a full crew the next day. These are people in my circle of life. I regularly fish w/ about 7 different guys. We pay for fuel as described in my previous post.
Biminitwist, you have significant deficiencies when it comes to reading comprehension, logical deductions and conclusions. You're very quick to throw a spear and hope it sticks somewhere, seemingly blindfolded.
Best wishes in your charter business. I am sorry to hear that unscrupulous people are affecting your bottom dollar and taking bread off your table. I will continue to fish with friends and fishing buddies and collect my fuel money at the end of the trip. Would you now at least consent to the fact that I am not offering nor advertising nor conducting myself in any manner that can be misconstrued as a charter business, or are you still confused?
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by HookMeUpII View Post

are you asking for money to SPLIT EXPENSES WHEN YOU GET BACK TO THE FUEL DOCK SAFELY?
Yes, just as I described from my initial post. Just like every single fisherman I personally know. AFTER the boat returns to the dock, AFTER the fish are filleted, AFTER the boat is cleaned, AFTER we put all gear away, I look at the fuel management, take my gallons burned X what I paid/ gallon at the fuel dock, divide by the number of crew members: that is the figure each fisherman is asked to contribute ( Insert whatever mental gymnastic verbiage Biminitwist feels most comfortable using: Required, volunteer, relinquish, pay, give, assist, bestow, furnish, endow, grant)... fill in the blank Bimini....whatever word makes you happy.
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Old 06-05-2019, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by USCG Safe Boating D8 View Post
Voluntary sharing of actual expenses is the operative part of the law as it relates to most of our discussions. If you invite people to come along and tell them they will be expected to share expenses, that's not legal.
Well, expected is a little too fuzzy. Expected is quite different from required. Those who are required to contribute, irrefutably become "passengers for hire," by statutory definition. I think these arguments would be less confrontational if the various factual scenarios are framed against a strict reading of the statute.

There is no "mental gymnastic verbiage" in the statute. The statute doesn't distinguish between friends or strangers, advertising or not, or distinguish whether you get your gas money before or after the trip. You don't have to be running a charter operation to violate the statute. All you have to do is require payment.

I believe sydngoose mispoke when he initially contended that he required gas money from his guests. He later clarified that by saying, "When I say 'require' that translates to ... Each participant pays their share of fuel costs. if someone elects not to pay, they don’t get invited again. I don’t sue them. I don’t publically humiliate them on social media, I don’t go to their place of work and garnish their wages." So, at the end of the day, the guests have the election whether to contribute or not. In such case, I don't think sydngoose is violating the statute. What he describes doing is pretty universal. He expects payment, but he doesn't require it.

At the same time, I believe 20biminitwist is correct in his analysis. Each case is going to turn on its own individual facts. After considering this issue one time too many, I believe I will require a cocktail.
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Old 06-05-2019, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by 20biminitwist View Post
A simple search on this topic and you will see that this topic has been beat to death many times.
x2
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Old 06-05-2019, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by mystery View Post
x2
The reason i was somewhat caustic in my response is that Ive been seeing this same argument rage for at least 20 years.

Its always the same. its almost always started by someone in the charter indusyry (captain, mate, owner, etc).

its beyond old. The blatent cases are few and easy to address without message board wars.

Ive been on both sides of the fence (pure rec and licensed/insured charter captain/operatr). I dont give a crap if some rec guy splits costs. I do care if some wiseguy sells trips.

Btw, its not cost sharing if the captain and family dont add a share. Yes, the owner has a lot of expenses but those dont count when cost sharing.
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Old 06-05-2019, 11:57 AM
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When it comes to offshore fishing any body not ready and willing to throw down some fuel $$$ is just wrong. I'm not asking the crew to cover all expenses..just help with fuel.
I.dont want 4 guys splitting all costs but those 4 should basically pay the days fuel bill ...I don't care if they throw me $300 or $50 but help...I usually provide the boat(and all expenses associated with the boat) rods, reels, line tackle gaffs, safety equipment, coolers, ice bait etc...help a brother out throw some gas in the tank and scrub a deck..that's all..I'm.not asking for a lot..those that don't comprehend this senario or think it's a " charter" arent welcome...I'm by no means going to require or request it. It's common courtesy around here...we burn an average of 120 gallons of fuel for a trolling trip..you helped burn $500 in fuel l,slept on $125 bean bag,had $40 worth of ice, broke a $90 gaff, used $60 worth of ballyhoo rigged on $900 worth of tackle attached to $4,000 worth of line rods and reels...$150 out of your pocket is cheap. All I'm looking for is some acknowledgement that you understand what happens here..period...a token of appreciation..
​​
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by gerg View Post
Btw, its not cost sharing if the captain and family dont add a share. Yes, the owner has a lot of expenses but those dont count when cost sharing.
This is really the crux of the argument but it goes completely unnoticed or rather, disregarded, by the enforcing bodies. Simply helping out with the cost of fuel is literally like 10% of the annual costs of having a boat. Not saying it's not appreciated but running a charter is different in that regard. Running a charter (or at least how it should be run) involves factoring in costs, maintenance, and then turning a profit.
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by HookMeUpII View Post
This is really the crux of the argument but it goes completely unnoticed or rather, disregarded, by the enforcing bodies. Simply helping out with the cost of fuel is literally like 10% of the annual costs of having a boat. Not saying it's not appreciated but running a charter is different in that regard. Running a charter (or at least how it should be run) involves factoring in costs, maintenance, and then turning a profit.
it can be more than fuel. Bait, sst charts, anything that gets consumed, are all ok. As long as its not a fixed cost.

Boats, especially offshore boats and gear, but you cant reasonably consider that your share or ask others to cover part of it.

Simple method. Add up all the trip wet costs, divide it by the number of people on the boat, and tell the crew what the amount is if they feel like helping.

If someone asks how much up front, just give them a general"in the past we spend roughly x per person, but it can vary based on a lot of factors"
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