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Something Fishy at the MA DOR

Old 03-04-2019, 01:14 PM
  #41  
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My apologies. I’ve done a poor job presenting this information. In my mind, it was important to provide full disclosure and to demonstrate a pattern of secretiveness. I knew that doing so would invite criticism. I didn’t anticipate the level of contempt and emotional reactions so far.

I’ll represent the question more concisely. and ask you not to post on this thread unless addressing exactly this issue. I would particularly welcome folks with familiarity of the MA General Laws or legal training.


Are the following few sentences the truth? Its from the last exchange posted…[7]


“You have requested information that you say came to the DOR from the Coast Guard and generated the DOR audit. I am prohibited by law from disclosing that particular information to you. G.L. chapter 62C, sections 21(a) & (d), prohibit me from disclosing to anyone including the taxpayer the data or materials that reflect audit-selection criteria or audit-issue criteria.”


Thank you,


Mike


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Old 03-04-2019, 01:49 PM
  #42  
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Truth as in an accurate representation? Did you look it up. MA laws are easily searchable.
General Ledger Chapter 62C Section 21.
(a) The disclosure by the commissioner, or by any deputy, assistant, clerk or assessor, or other employee of the commonwealth or of any city or town therein, to any person but the taxpayer or his representative, of any information contained in or set forth by any return or document filed with the commissioner, except in proceedings or other activities to determine or collect the tax or for the purpose of criminal prosecution under this chapter, chapters sixty A, sixty-two to sixty-five C, inclusive, section ten of chapter one hundred and twenty-one A and section twenty-one of chapter one hundred and thirty-eight, is prohibited.

(c) Any violation of this section shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars, or by imprisonment for not more than six months, or both, and by disqualification from holding office in the commonwealth for such period, not exceeding three years, as the court determines.

Seems pretty accurate to me. No legal training except to say, never convicted and a bit of a politics and law nerd. What is the greater truth you seek? You readily admit to doing a poor job at communicating what the greater point to this post is. Color me curious.
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Old 03-04-2019, 02:46 PM
  #43  
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OP,

you need to give up on your vendetta. The original auditor was polite and gave you a lot more than they should have. This person clearly regretted the information they provided by the end of the exchange. Reading between the lines, auditor 1 gave you a path to get out of it. Then the person from the other office reiterated how to gain some relief. I would not be shocked if either or both provide a written report or notes in the case log, these notes are most likely viewable by the person that rules on your case. If you want any hope to gain some relief, tuck the tail between your legs, pay what they rule you owe, and move on. Honestly after reading this exchange I felt sorry for the people that work in the DOR, which I honestly thought was not humanly possible.

Pay & move on!!!
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Old 03-05-2019, 08:04 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Rmoody79 View Post
Mike- i think the part we disagree on is, it’s not on the state to notify or send you a sales tax bill when you bought the boat, it’s the other way around, less when the state finds it unpaid, you are notified plus penalty and interest.

I get it, the whole thing sucks, send in that paperwork for an abatement and take what they give you for a break

Yes to above and you pay the MA sales tax even if you purchase the boat out of state!
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Old 03-05-2019, 11:29 AM
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caveat emptor
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:30 PM
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I had to google the latin, but, you are spot on. Its a learning experience…every time!


To ck_moniz, I understand how you feel that way. It has that appearance. But since I was going through it, I could feel what it really was. I’m struggling to present this material in an easily digestible way, and I didn’t want to do this now, but you can see from the next exchange that the Auditor is doing what the DOR refers to as “sheilding” information.


[Exchange 8]


Fri, Feb 15, 4:24 PM


Dear [me],


You have asked “for information about how the DOR audits Coast Guard data.” I am sorry, but Section 21(d) covers this type of information. If you were asking the auditor, then he too would shield that information. We do not disclose how or when we secure information that may prompt an audit or assessment or a collection or enforcement action.





[Disclosure Officer]






BackEastDon… thanks for posting… Curious is good! Have some fun with it, that’s ok by me. Nobody is dying here…


I’ll juxtapose the DOR response to your quote of the MA General Laws, and you might see what I see….


General Laws
  1. The disclosure by the commissioner, or by any deputy, assistant, clerk or assessor, or other employee of the commonwealth or of any city or town therein, to any person but the taxpayer or his representative, of any information contained in or set forth by any return or document filed with the commissioner, except in proceedings or other activities to determine or collect the tax or for the purpose of criminal prosecution under this chapter, chapters sixty A, sixty-two to sixty-five C, inclusive, section ten of chapter one hundred and twenty-one A and section twenty-one of chapter one hundred and thirty-eight, is prohibited.


[Disclosure Officer]

“You have requested information that you say came to the DOR from the Coast Guard and generated the DOR audit. I am prohibited by law from disclosing that particular information to you. G.L. chapter 62C, sections 21(a) & (d), prohibit me from disclosing to anyone including the taxpayer the data or materials that reflect audit-selection criteria or audit-issue criteria.”

Thanks,

Mike
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:53 PM
  #47  
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Mike, boating is an expensive hobby! How do you deal with fuel bills, normal maintenance, unforeseen breakdowns and slip fees?? Get used to the sensation of having your Benjamin Franklins fly out of the boat and gone forever.

Move on and enjoy your new boat. Life is too short. Boating is supposed to be relaxing. Lol
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Old 03-05-2019, 03:58 PM
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Prove that the boat was never in ma,. Use the RI. slip receipt . Make them prove it was in ma . Fun Fun till your license goes away .
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Old 03-05-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeRI View Post
I had to google the latin, but, you are spot on. Its a learning experience…every time!


To ck_moniz, I understand how you feel that way. It has that appearance. But since I was going through it, I could feel what it really was. I’m struggling to present this material in an easily digestible way, and I didn’t want to do this now, but you can see from the next exchange that the Auditor is doing what the DOR refers to as “sheilding” information.


[Exchange 8]


Fri, Feb 15, 4:24 PM


Dear [me],


You have asked “for information about how the DOR audits Coast Guard data.” I am sorry, but Section 21(d) covers this type of information. If you were asking the auditor, then he too would shield that information. We do not disclose how or when we secure information that may prompt an audit or assessment or a collection or enforcement action.





[Disclosure Officer]






BackEastDon… thanks for posting… Curious is good! Have some fun with it, that’s ok by me. Nobody is dying here…


I’ll juxtapose the DOR response to your quote of the MA General Laws, and you might see what I see….


General Laws
  1. The disclosure by the commissioner, or by any deputy, assistant, clerk or assessor, or other employee of the commonwealth or of any city or town therein, to any person but the taxpayer or his representative, of any information contained in or set forth by any return or document filed with the commissioner, except in proceedings or other activities to determine or collect the tax or for the purpose of criminal prosecution under this chapter, chapters sixty A, sixty-two to sixty-five C, inclusive, section ten of chapter one hundred and twenty-one A and section twenty-one of chapter one hundred and thirty-eight, is prohibited.


[Disclosure Officer]

“You have requested information that you say came to the DOR from the Coast Guard and generated the DOR audit. I am prohibited by law from disclosing that particular information to you. G.L. chapter 62C, sections 21(a) & (d), prohibit me from disclosing to anyone including the taxpayer the data or materials that reflect audit-selection criteria or audit-issue criteria.”

Thanks,

Mike
Just keep in mind there are a few other words in between the bold ones. Law is "subject to interpretation" Also of note is that there is nothing government takes more seriously than tax revenues. It is the source of all functional power in government. Most laws are written with a presumption of innocence and due process. The courts give a lot of latitude with regard to taxation. Let me remind you of the power the DOR or IRS has to seize property including money in banks and the process requires that you prove you don't owe or are otherwise not liable. They can come in with guns drawn and there is little you can do except to prove you don't owe after the fact. In this case there is no evidence that you don't owe the state money.

That is the problem many have with this post. We get it, it sucks but we also understand reality. The advice you have been getting is simply try to pick a battle that you can win. You seem to be searching for some sort of Pyrrhic victory where there is likely none to be had. There are no mitigating circumstances that will negate your tax liability. You are not going to find a mistake or loophole or some minor mistake by the DOR representative will cause you to not be liable for the tax burden. This is what I have an issue with and why I empathize with your situation but have little sympathy for your position in this post.
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Old 03-05-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by South of Heaven View Post
Mike, boating is an expensive hobby! How do you deal with fuel bills, normal maintenance, unforeseen breakdowns and slip fees?? Get used to the sensation of having your Benjamin Franklins fly out of the boat and gone forever.

Move on and enjoy your new boat. Life is too short. Boating is supposed to be relaxing. Lol
Amen! Something I had to get off my chest.... Very much looking forward to a great season with the family.
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Old 03-08-2019, 01:53 PM
  #51  
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Red face

Seems like nobody in MA cares if the DOR is intentionally delaying notifying tax delinquent residents in order to get more penalty $$ from them. The fact that the people you emailed would not give you the date they were made aware of your suspected "skirting of the tax laws" would make me even more concerned that this was happening.

I'm glad I don't live in MA. Bash away about LA, heaven knows just how corrupt it is.
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Old 03-09-2019, 09:21 AM
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That's the only thing this thread was ever about. I had a feeling it would be a member from the South to "get" it.
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Old 03-10-2019, 04:17 PM
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then why didn't they wait 5 more years??? I know, I know, don't let the facts get in the way, I get it.
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Old 03-10-2019, 06:55 PM
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That’s exactly the right question, chainsaw, and the question that made me suspicious.

The penalties max out at 50% of the initial tax bill.

I got the letter in the mail at 46%.

This didn’t strike me as pure coincidence, so I started asking questions.





At the end, I think I can demonstrate that the MA DOR is



1- Punitive (yes, I deserved the punishment because of my ignorance…the THT response I expected)

2- Secretive (“shielding” to use their own lingo)


and if Post #46 is the way I see it…

3- Down-right Lyin’.

If you are interested, take a stab at it…I was hoping for a legal opinion, but whatever…


Nobody’s dying, and my kids are well fed. I just thought “The Hull Truth” might be the ideal forum to share this kind of thing, as it relates to both “Truth” and “Hull”s. As a resident of MA, I would like to hear if this type of thing is happening to my neighbors. I apologized to those who were made nauseous by the process. I find it very interesting, and I thought you might, too!


Mike
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:30 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by MikeRI View Post
That’s exactly the right question, chainsaw, and the question that made me suspicious.

The penalties max out at 50% of the initial tax bill.

I got the letter in the mail at 46%.

This didn’t strike me as pure coincidence, so I started asking questions.
you should have lead with that. you're delivery is way off. way too wordy, you sound like you're using words you've never used before, and you were trying to write a script for a perry mason show. you don't need to try to talk like a lawyer when talking about the law.

bottom line might be 'WARNING: MA might be working to maximize what you have to pay in penalties when you neglect to pay your tax bills'

However, I don't think many would find that surprising, even if you do.
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Old 03-12-2019, 08:39 AM
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Can't we all just get along??
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:05 PM
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I finished reading the “CT to raise taxes on boats” thread this am, and gave it some reflection throughout the day. Despite some disagreements, I can see where people agree. There is a hungry political machine that exchanges votes for cash.

MA, RI, and CT all have this machine. It outspends itself, and pins ever-more debt on taxpayers and on our children. One member referred to the cycle as a “death-spiral.” This should be of concern to all taxpayers.

The enforcement or collection arm of the machine is the DOR. It operates in secrecy and appears to function in a way to maximize collections. Feeding the machine is a difficult job; there is never enough.

Taxpayers do have some rights, though, and the MA General Laws offer that protection specifically to the taxpayer, at least by supplying information about how the DOR works.

I’ve got the DOR on record (see Post 46) citing the very MA General Laws that offer disclosure to taxpayers, lying to a taxpayer in an effort to remain secretive. This should be of concern to taxpayers as well. Say nothing, and you can guarantee those rights will be abused.

To hell with “fishy”…. I’m calling it illegal.
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Old 03-15-2019, 05:43 PM
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Mike: If you're so passionate about it then contact your local state rep. That's a large part of their job, to field inquiries from their constituents. The Hull Truth can't help you.
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Old 03-15-2019, 06:18 PM
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No one likes a sea lawyer.
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Old 03-16-2019, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by MikeRI View Post
That’s exactly the right question, chainsaw, and the question that made me suspicious.

The penalties max out at 50% of the initial tax bill.

I got the letter in the mail at 46%.

This didn’t strike me as pure coincidence, so I started asking questions.





At the end, I think I can demonstrate that the MA DOR is



1- Punitive (yes, I deserved the punishment because of my ignorance…the THT response I expected)

2- Secretive (“shielding” to use their own lingo)


and if Post #46 is the way I see it…

3- Down-right Lyin’.

If you are interested, take a stab at it…I was hoping for a legal opinion, but whatever


Nobody’s dying, and my kids are well fed. I just thought “The Hull Truth” might be the ideal forum to share this kind of thing, as it relates to both “Truth” and “Hull”s. As a resident of MA, I would like to hear if this type of thing is happening to my neighbors. I apologized to those who were made nauseous by the process. I find it very interesting, and I thought you might, too!


Mike
Those cost money, just like taxes. I'm seeing a trend here.
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