Notices

Rec VS Commercial HMS permit

Old 12-12-2020, 06:40 PM
  #1  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: New England
Posts: 496
Received 125 Likes on 93 Posts
Default Rec VS Commercial HMS permit

Winters here, renewals are coming up so curious on thoughts of when to make the switch or if to make the switch.

Currently fish out of NH, my boat is trailerable but I hate trailering and donít have the best truck for it and store it on a mooring so typically run to the inside spots past the isles of shoals and out to Jeffries. Plans are also as far north as Boone island and south to stellwagen (all by water to avoid the hassle of trailering). Most trips are mixed expectations for haddock with the big rods in the water for tuna when Iím out there whether anchored or drifting. Currently have a rec permit and made ~10 trips this year half on anchor, half mixed drifting, so can go basically whenever but also did not catch a fish this year (although my last trip I was next to a friend whose commercial, left a half hour before him to get back for personal stuff and he landed a giant) so that got the question going in my head...

if Iím going to be out there anyway and end up with a fish should I just get a commercial permit and offset some costs? If I donít catch anything I enjoy the chase anyway so do it for fun no pressure. If I go commercial itíll be the 3 mile limit permit as I donít have a life raft currently but have everything else safety wise to go beyond there. Anyone with similar experience or thoughts on commercial vs rec for those use cases? Iíve been around giant fishing on and off for years, caught lots of small tuna in the past, never landed a giant (have fought one years ago) but the waters I fish theyíre more prevalent than unders. Any opinions appreciated, more out of curiosity and winter boredom dreaming of the first trip of the year, my minds not made up yet one way or the other.
Old 12-12-2020, 06:52 PM
  #2  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: E. Falmouth
Posts: 3,930
Received 216 Likes on 133 Posts
Default

I didn't even know there was a 3 mile permit that avoids the raft requirement.
Old 12-12-2020, 06:54 PM
  #3  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: New England
Posts: 496
Received 125 Likes on 93 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Legal Bill View Post
I didn't even know there was a 3 mile permit that avoids the raft requirement.
Based on my research last year it was the same permit but doing the pre inspection with the coast guard you got certified for the ~25 mile or ~3 mile...double checking now but I know a few guys who donít have rafts and are commercial and fish the 3 mile line (in NH/southern ME itís not too difficult with the shoals and Boone island etc extending the line from shore to closer to 8 miles).
Old 12-12-2020, 07:03 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Mass. North Shore
Posts: 1,101
Received 198 Likes on 103 Posts
Default

Get your capt license to get your chb so you can catch both.
Old 12-12-2020, 09:02 PM
  #5  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: New England
Posts: 496
Received 125 Likes on 93 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by outathehouse View Post
Get your capt license to get your chb so you can catch both.
Thats my 3-5 year plan, off season is tough for me to put time into the license as a corporate accountant my off boating season is dealing with year end and a few quarter ends then Iím back to commissioning the boat and fishing in March/April. Donít have time at this point working some weeks 50-60 hrs and most weeks from December to March 100ish hours to make the course worth it so have to choose one or the other the next few years but definitely in my plan to get it so I can fish and basically choose based on what I catch
Old 12-12-2020, 09:42 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: East of Marblehead.
Posts: 567
Likes: 0
Received 37 Likes on 26 Posts
Default

How are you going to legally fish for giants on a commercial permit on all the spots you suggested carrying only the gear required for inside the 3 mile?

All those people who only gear for inside the 3 mile are fishing illegally if they are outside the 3 mile line.

if you have the cash to spend on the safety gear do it and go have fun but donít expect to break even.

remember to sell a fish you have to catch fish on a day the buyers are buying fish. I would bet thatís at best 5 out of the 10 days you fished.
Old 12-12-2020, 09:57 PM
  #7  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: New England
Posts: 496
Received 125 Likes on 93 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Cmonkey View Post
How are you going to legally fish for giants on a commercial permit on all the spots you suggested carrying only the gear required for inside the 3 mile?

All those people who only gear for inside the 3 mile are fishing illegally if they are outside the 3 mile line.

if you have the cash to spend on the safety gear do it and go have fun but donít expect to break even.

remember to sell a fish you have to catch fish on a day the buyers are buying fish. I would bet thatís at best 5 out of the 10 days you fished.
Thats my dilemma and the question, is it worth getting the commercial permit without life raft (center console soft top with no good way to add a hard case auto raft excluding cost for it) and fish inside the 3 mile line (Boone island, mud hole, old scantum) all inside the line, or is it worth keeping the rec and setting up in those same spots commercially or when Iím further on Jeffries I can still fish legally with the rec permit but commercial I canít catch and sell a fish. And to clarify, break even meaning Iím going there anyway and already have the gear so fixed costs aside (not looking to run a business with it or supplement income), just the thought of the primary fish in the area are giants so if I land one I can make a few grand and cover fuel for a season or half a season or for a decent fish say $4k net upgrade a piece of electronics a year etc. not delusional by any means thinking Iíll get $20 or even $10 or even $5 a lb and catch 20 fish a year but debating the idea of Iím already there and fishing the spots anyway, odds are most hookups will be giants so is the rec even worth it or just get the commercial, do the same thing Iím doing just sell if I land one vs release if itís a giant or keep if itís under (but all those spots will primarily be large unders and Iím questioning if I can eat/give away 300lbs of meat if I ended up with a 60-72Ē)...and it was 7 of the 10 days I truly fished the buyers were buying, not that it mattered since I didnít catch but I had their schedules from commercial fishing buddies and i tended to fish when they were buying, may have been luck or coincidence this year but I was out there for it

Last edited by Jamato14; 12-12-2020 at 10:17 PM.
Old 12-13-2020, 06:16 AM
  #8  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Lakeville Ma
Posts: 5,940
Received 569 Likes on 308 Posts
Default

I thought you needed to have your captains license to get the permit to fish commercially. I don’t understand why you would fish that much and not want to have a raft?

Also not directed at you and more of a general question I have wondered about. Is it as simple as just calling up a fish buyer on the way in and telling them you have a fish to sell? Do you need a relationship with a buyer first.
Likes:
Old 12-13-2020, 06:28 AM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 290
Received 18 Likes on 11 Posts
Default

Think more about how much money you want to spend. You can spend an ocean full doing this. The permit is federal which means federal rules apply. 8 miles from nearest shore line w/ no raft. 3 miles defines state fishing not federal. Fish appear to be moving north including striper. If you are under 35,have money, get ur captains license, fish for giants and on the occasion u get a short, u get to keep it. Try catching 1 fish before u talk about 20! Good luck and remember to have a budget and keep it cause there isn't a lot of money in small boat fishing in general. Keep it simple and keep it fun!
Old 12-13-2020, 06:38 AM
  #10  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Wildcat Knoll
Posts: 9,293
Received 847 Likes on 561 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Jutman View Post
Think more about how much money you want to spend. You can spend an ocean full doing this. The permit is federal which means federal rules apply. 8 miles from nearest shore line w/ no raft. 3 miles defines state fishing not federal. Fish appear to be moving north including striper. If you are under 35,have money, get ur captains license, fish for giants and on the occasion u get a short, u get to keep it. Try catching 1 fish before u talk about 20! Good luck and remember to have a budget and keep it cause there isn't a lot of money in small boat fishing in general. Keep it simple and keep it fun!
Another is if your vessel is documented ,commercial fishing vessels require Solas equipment.Whole other ballgame financially.
Old 12-13-2020, 08:15 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 630
Received 280 Likes on 147 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Stickbo View Post
I
Also not directed at you and more of a general question I have wondered about. Is it as simple as just calling up a fish buyer on the way in and telling them you have a fish to sell? Do you need a relationship with a buyer first.
This year you needed to have a relationship. Each buyer had a list of boats they were buying from. But, yeah all you need to do is text them and they come pick it up.
Old 12-13-2020, 08:29 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 630
Received 280 Likes on 147 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Jamato14 View Post
Thats my dilemma and the question, is it worth getting the commercial permit without life raft (center console soft top with no good way to add a hard case auto raft excluding cost for it)
Are you state registered or Documented? THe life raft requirements are different for both. If you are state registered then all you need is a coastal valise pack raft out to 100 miles no need to mount it. If you are documented then you need solas raft if you want to get a 50 mile and above sticker.

Last edited by 32regulator; 12-13-2020 at 08:36 AM.
Old 12-13-2020, 09:54 AM
  #13  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: RI
Posts: 7,033
Received 1,133 Likes on 641 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Stickbo View Post
I thought you needed to have your captains license to get the permit to fish commercially. I donít understand why you would fish that much and not want to have a raft?
.
Captains license, can fish the non commercial permit but allowed to keep and sell commercial fish. Hence the reason most charters get to keep a commercial catch. Also allows them to fill the rec catch when they are out rec fishing or have a charter.

Commercial permit has no special captains licensing requirement but then limits the vessel to commercial only. It also imposes different safety regulations further complicated for documented versus non documented boats. I recall boat size also impacted the requirements.
Old 12-13-2020, 09:57 AM
  #14  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: New England
Posts: 496
Received 125 Likes on 93 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by 32regulator View Post
Are you state registered or Documented? THe life raft requirements are different for both. If you are state registered then all you need is a coastal valise pack raft out to 100 miles no need to mount it. If you are documented then you need solas raft if you want to get a 50 mile and above sticker.
Good point, I misremembered that (i hadnít run the requirements in a while on the website to check). Iím state registered, 23í CC so valise would work for me and is on the list to pickup this winter (as another asked why Iíd fish that much without one, I want it and am shopping for one).
Likes:
Old 12-13-2020, 02:10 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Scituate
Posts: 1,235
Received 518 Likes on 266 Posts
Default

Just go through LRSE and save yourself the shopping around
Likes:
Old 12-13-2020, 02:29 PM
  #16  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 2,133
Likes: 0
Received 232 Likes on 133 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by BACKTOTHESEA View Post
Captains license, can fish the non commercial permit but allowed to keep and sell commercial fish. Hence the reason most charters get to keep a commercial catch. Also allows them to fill the rec catch when they are out rec fishing or have a charter.

Commercial permit has no special captains licensing requirement but then limits the vessel to commercial only. It also imposes different safety regulations further complicated for documented versus non documented boats. I recall boat size also impacted the requirements.
Just to clarify, if you have a charter/headboat HMS permit, each day that you fish you "declare" whether you are fishing under recreational rules, charter rules, or commercial (general category). So if you go out and catch a 42" recreational fish and keep it, you cannot keep a giant that day and sell it. Two years ago NMFS required that holders of a charter/headboat permit who wished to fish commercially had to get inspected and meet the equipment requirements for commercial permit holders. In the good old days, that was a loophole that made the CHB permit quite attractive.
Likes:
Old 12-13-2020, 04:29 PM
  #17  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Newburyport, MA
Posts: 2,043
Received 206 Likes on 126 Posts
Default

Safety gear aside, there are other things to consider when going commercial, such as insurance, quota closures, vessel inspections, safety drills, etc, etc. It is quite the list, and personally, I have come to the conclusion that it really isn't worth it. HMS/charter is the way to go, but that requires a captain's license.
Old 12-13-2020, 04:41 PM
  #18  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 343
Received 88 Likes on 62 Posts
Default

20 bucks a pound you must be dreaming. I fish commercially and have all the safety gear. Raft, gumby suits, ebrib ,ect, ect. I did not see anything close to that... What about the 300 to 400 pounds of ice needed to properly ice down a giant? How you going to boat a 500 or 600 pound fish? Or you just going to be another guy I see towing a fish in to sell. Start with catching one and go from there. As far as I am concerned it should be a equal playing field. All the stuff I am required to have and you don't need but still able to sell a fish.
Likes:
Old 12-13-2020, 04:48 PM
  #19  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: New England
Posts: 496
Received 125 Likes on 93 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Devil_Inside View Post
Safety gear aside, there are other things to consider when going commercial, such as insurance, quota closures, vessel inspections, safety drills, etc, etc. It is quite the list, and personally, I have come to the conclusion that it really isn't worth it. HMS/charter is the way to go, but that requires a captain's license.
Great points, thatís what I was looking for was the things I may not be thinking of besides the typical items. HMS/Charter is out for at least the next few years (although thatís my ultimate goal) but due to work, personal obligations just canít swing it now. Insurance Iíve spoken to and theyíve okíd selling a giant or two but would deny if I was doing the NH lobster permit and selling lobsters consistently but they for no extra cost the are fine with an endorsement for a couple fish idk how they decide as Iím not an underwriter but have looked into it since I kick the idea back and forth every year. Quota closures are the other biggest thing, but if Iím haddock fishing anyway in that timeframe and donít catch a rec fish itís the same as haddock fishing without the tuna rods out or catch/release. Safety drills, I already do, my primary crew is myself or me and the GF and I sound like a nerd but I do timed drills in the off-season to make sure we each can get into survival suits in <2 minutes and try for faster (on land is different Iím aware, but doing the exercise makes it easier with muscle memory on the water). Anyone else I bring once or twice a year either has their commercial permit so I can learn from them and we swap trips or is a good friend who I brief and walk through safety items before going. Definitely seems like a lot of extras still though, thanks for the input that adds more to the thought process
Old 12-13-2020, 05:06 PM
  #20  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: New England
Posts: 496
Received 125 Likes on 93 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Captinlon View Post
20 bucks a pound you must be dreaming. I fish commercially and have all the safety gear. Raft, gumby suits, ebrib ,ect, ect. I did not see anything close to that... What about the 300 to 400 pounds of ice needed to properly ice down a giant? How you going to boat a 500 or 600 pound fish? Or you just going to be another guy I see towing a fish in to sell. Start with catching one and go from there. As far as I am concerned it should be a equal playing field. All the stuff I am required to have and you don't need but still able to sell a fish.
Not to sound like a dick but I said ďIm not delusional and do NOT expect to get $20/lb or $10/lb or even $5/lbĒ and I do not expect to land 20 or 10 or more than 1 fish or supplement my income etc, just deciding between if I land 1 a year maybe if itís worth the commercial and selling vs having the Rec and if I land one in the rec range eating or giving away a large amount. My primary fishing grounds are more giant areas than shorts. I have every piece of safety equipment besides a raft (EPIRB, PLB, Gumby suits, 50 mile solas flares, type 1 PFDís etc etc my center console is stuffed to the top with all the commercial safety gear ex raft).

I agree it should be even, but that even goes both ways, if I have all the safety gear and spend the time Iím able to out there why not sell MAYBE one, you or other true commercial guys have a better shot at better prices with better relationships with buyers/brokers, in years like this have more days to sell, have a better shot cause youíre out there more than me or others in my position.

I 100% agree with what youíre saying, everyone should have a fair shot and be held to the same standards. because of the market and the uptick in those with money who actually think they can get ďwicked tunaĒ prices the markets may be flooded but on the flip side why should that hurt the guys who come in and want to do it right and have picked up all of the gear required and spend as much time as possible out there, everyone had to start with no or little experience at some point right?

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.