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Old 03-17-2017, 06:37 PM   #241
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I'm not sure you're achieving your goal.

Maybe you could help Furuno for a little while?
(sigh) I was hoping this would not devolve into an insult thing again...

Look at it this way and then decide if this is an important issue for Garmn to resolve or not.

Ive been involved in sales and marketing for a long time. Reputation is everything and its soooo easy to loose a good one and sooooo hard to get it back.

Lowrance screwed up their reputation with bad customer support several years ago, and they are STILL paying for it. Look at any thread where someone asks about buying Lowrance and there will be several people jumping is sharing their horror stories and saying they will never buy Lowrance again - me included.

This thread has proven that customer support cannot be trusted to give out the correct information AND that its been going on a long time.

It has proven that Garmins website cannot be trusted to give out the correct information AND its been going on a long time.

If you are new customer, what does that tell you?

If you have a problem or dont understand something or have a question or need to up-date your maps, or are not sure what you will actually get when you buy something or something isnt working like you thught it would - what the hell are you supposed to do?

Who are you supposed to ask? Who should you trust?

You cant rely on Garmins website OR customer support OR me OR bluewaterpirate or anyone else OR anything else.

What message is that sending to new and existing customers?

I think I am perfectly justified in my outrage. There are still unanswered questions. How do I find out the truth?

I have sent Garmin many emails and talked to customer support many times and posted in "wish list" threads and complaint threads and made suggestions to Todd and to dealers - for more than a year about website problems and other issues.

Most of them of them have NOT been fixed.

Asking nicely has failed - repeatedly.

Its time to yell and scream and hope someone at Garmin takes notice.

I really like my Garmin stuff. BUT they may end up like Lowrance and I may have to switch brands and STOP recommending them to other people..

I dont want to do that.
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Old 03-17-2017, 06:40 PM   #242
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Actually thats not quite true.

Every one could just PM Todd for all customer service and product questions.
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Old 03-17-2017, 08:02 PM   #243
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I agree with you yrral3215. I think your points are well intended and well taken.

When you point out a shortcoming of a product or company someone will come to defend. Often this is because the criticism is taken to be mean spirited rather than well intentioned. That's the price you pay. I appreciate your posts and the care you take to be precise.

Many years ago when I was a Bird user, I was having interference problems with multiple units and interference because how how 200 and 83 worked. I did some tests, determined the cause and posted it on a Bird board. It was not well received. Then later had several units that all fogged up inside the screen. At that time Humminbird was the underdog taking on the big boys and it just wasn't acceptable to criticize them for anything. That's better now.

Then when I went with Lowrance they were having problems with water intrusion and screen dimming. Getting a warranty adjustment on this was often refused. I hear it's better now, but like you said, I don't know and most likely won't know because I was refused replacement and right now can't imagine buying another Lowrance. Humminbird support after the sale was good. No complaints.

You are dead on about this hurting both Garmin and potential customers. I have some Garmins and a host of their transducers. Excellent products. Quality and performance both first class. I also find them receptive to suggestions to software changes. My background is technology so I cannot fathom the website errors or tech support inconsistencies. The best information comes from Todd, you, and then TroyBoy and Larry on BBC. Please keep up the good work. Thank you.
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Old 03-18-2017, 01:06 AM   #244
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Thanks! I needed that after the insults and attacks.

Let me be absolutely clear.

I love my Garmin equipment. Its the best I have ever used.

I also really like every customer support person I have ever dealt with at Garmin whether it was on the phone or via email. Well, there was one guy who only read the first half one of my emails before replying, but he made up for it later.

Every single one has come across as dedicated and polite. They genuinely want to help and do their best. Even when they havent been able to resolve a problem, or got something wrong, it wasnt for lack of trying.

I have no complaints about the people on the customer support front lines. They are good people.

My problem is with the obvious fact that they are not getting the support or information they need to do their jobs. Im NOT saying they are lying to us on purpose or mis-reading a spec sheet or dont know their jobs.

Who ever has the responsibility to get them the correct, up to date information is who is failing Garmn and their customers. I have no idea who that is, but they are hurting Garmin and their customers.

As far as the website, I have zero sympathy or tolerance. Who ever is running that mess needs to go.

The download problem has been going on for more than a year already and its still going to be another two months?

Its been at least 48 hours since we discovered that the website had the wrong map data on HD maps - and its still not fixed?

How long does it take to delete two letters - HD - from a half dozen web pages?

Nope, no sympathy form me on the website at all.
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Old 03-20-2017, 06:52 PM   #245
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Just wanted to post an update. I called garmin support and they also gave me the advertised but not loaded 2017 G2 HD maps for the 942xs not as a basemap update set of files but as a download via express that had to be loaded onto one my 32G SD cards. Both of my units have two SD card slots for a total of four for the system so keeping a 32G card in both units for storage duties is not a problem.

I have both of my units registered in express as well (7607xsv and the newer 942xs). Since both my units are registered I can use the G2HD maps in either unit! It isn't locked to one of my serials but to ANY serial of a GPSMAP plotter that I have registered! I tested the card in either unit and both load the maps just fine regardless of where the card is.

Furthermore the base map load can also be shared between either unit! Since the 942xs came with 2016.51 base maps it would allow me to update the 7607xsv base maps to that level too. The 2016.51 basemap is downloadable and installable via express. Perhaps they have worked some of the bugs out of it now?

Since the 2017 basemap isn't available yet I will have to wait until those files are ready for download and in any case is superseded by the 2017 G2HD maps I am good to go!
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Old 03-20-2017, 07:59 PM   #246
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How are you getting the 2016.51 from the 942 to the 7607? How are you downloading the maps from the MFD into Express? Or am I misunderstanding you?
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:15 PM   #247
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I received this email from Garmin Supoort in regards to pre-loaded G2 HD charts.

Hello Tom,

I will be happy to help. Unfortunately, the 942xs only came with standard Bluechart G2 maps. I know on our website it shows that it comes with Bluechart G2 HD. We are working on correcting the website so it does not show that it comes with Bluechart G2 HD. Since the website is wrong, if you reply back with a shipping address, we will send you out a free Bluechart G2 HD pre programmed card. i apologize for any inconvenience that this may have caused.

Thank you for choosing Garmin,


Adam


Product Support - Marine Team
Garmin International
http://support.garmin.com

Now the next question does that carry over to the other new units on the Garmin website that advertise coming with pre-loaded G2 HD charts?

I have not heard from Todd yet but I know I will.
Hey Tom,

I powered up my 742xs and it has the standard non HD charts loaded. Hopefully I can contact Garmin and they will ship me the G2 HD.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:59 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by Yrral3215 View Post
How are you getting the 2016.51 from the 942 to the 7607? How are you downloading the maps from the MFD into Express? Or am I misunderstanding you?
when i registered both units in express that map is now available to download for ANY case of my registered units! i just download it to a sd card and install it. likewise for the g2 hd map the 942xs came with. while it's not a base map
i can use the downloaded map's sd card in either of my registered unit.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:01 PM   #249
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Hey Tom,

I powered up my 742xs and it has the standard non HD charts loaded. Hopefully I can contact Garmin and they will ship me the G2 HD.
they will. i called them today about my 942. they offered the hd map as an express
download or a shipped sd card.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:27 PM   #250
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when i registered both units in express that map is now available to download for ANY case of my registered units! i just download it to a sd card and install it. likewise for the g2 hd map the 942xs came with. while it's not a base map
i can use the downloaded map's sd card in either of my registered unit.
Ok, I misunderstood. I thought you were taking the built in map from one MFD and installing it on another MFD.

What you are doing is downloading new accessory maps through Express onto an sd card and then using those in any unit. Its still not up-dating/replacing the internal maps,

I wonder why you are being allowed to do that in any unit and jfwireless wasnt? His was locked to a single mfd.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:49 PM   #251
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Yes I believe so, I have an 8212 and 7612xsv networked on my Edgewater, they share G2 HD Vision data on a single card in the network but not base maps. Also I had an original G2 HD Vision card, updated it via a download, and now it is tied to one of my MFD's. So if my 8212 breaks down I can't just move that card to the 7612 like I could before, very frustrating. !!


Jim
Hey Jim PM me and I will get you out a HD base map tomorrow if that will help you. If the card I sent is now locked I will help with that as well.
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Old 03-20-2017, 10:57 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Yrral3215 View Post
Ok, I misunderstood. I thought you were taking the built in map from one MFD and installing it on another MFD.

What you are doing is downloading new accessory maps through Express onto an sd card and then using those in any unit. Its still not up-dating/replacing the internal maps,

I wonder why you are being allowed to do that in any unit and jfwireless wasnt? His was locked to a single mfd.
that too. the 2016.51 base maps are available for download as well. i can load them on either unit.

i don't know why the other guy is having the issues he is.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:32 AM   #253
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No, those are "Accessory maps" that have to stay on an sd card in the slot. They dont up-date/change/replace the internal maps in any way. You can move the SD card around, but its not changing the internal maps and you are not copying an internal map from one unit and installing it on another.

The internal map up-dates wont be out until 3 May according to Todd.
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Old 03-21-2017, 12:39 PM   #254
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A bit off topic from the current direction of the thread.

Do more contour lines really mean better accuracy?

Wouldn't it be awfully easy for a Garmin software engineer to develop an algorithm to interpolate the old (wider) contour lines so as to give a chart presentation that would seem reasonable, and provide many more contour lines (such as on the Garmin HD cards)?

Or was there really a hydrographic survey done by somebody that provided the information leading to more contour lines on the Garmin HD card?

I suppose when I have oodles of time, I'll call Garmin, but I won't have much confidence in their answer.
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Old 03-21-2017, 02:37 PM   #255
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Most of those contour lines are computer generated and not based on actual bottom scans.

Just because they show more lines doesnt mean its any better or more accurate.
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Originally Posted by mrmamiller View Post
A bit off topic from the current direction of the thread.

Do more contour lines really mean better accuracy?

Wouldn't it be awfully easy for a Garmin software engineer to develop an algorithm to interpolate the old (wider) contour lines so as to give a chart presentation that would seem reasonable, and provide many more contour lines (such as on the Garmin HD cards)?

Or was there really a hydrographic survey done by somebody that provided the information leading to more contour lines on the Garmin HD card?

I suppose when I have oodles of time, I'll call Garmin, but I won't have much confidence in their answer.

hehehe Thats exactly what I said back at the very beginning of this thread, but no one wants to think about that. Some computer has generated those extra contour lines.

Unless Garmin and Navionics have had a boat with multi-beam sonar gear, and hi precision GPS gear, actually scan every single square foot of the entire Pacific and Atlantic oceans,or at least the coastal waters, those 1 ft contours are no better than the old 7 ft contours.

They are just pretty pictures to make you feel good. Marketing hype in other words.

This applies to Navionics and every other brand of charts out there. No one has done that level of scanning and it will be many decades before even a small percentage of it is scanned - even just the coastal waters is a huge area -.

At the moment I think all you can expect is maybe portions of major harbors - maybe.

I have no real idea who is or is not doing that sort of active ongoing scanning other than Garmin scanning large numbers of new lakes every year. They dont talk about doing marine areas and as far as I know neither does Navionics. I think Navionics takes some data from users, but I have my doubts about that source of data being useful for 1 ft contours.

Bottom line, I agree with you. For the vast majority of marine waters, this is a lot of fuss about computer generated, imaginary contours.

The little "side issue" of Garmin support being unreliable and the website errors is far more important in my mind. Its been almost a week now since Garmin acknowledged that the website had the map information wrong on the new models web pages - and its still not fixed. In fact, ALL of the errors we have brought up in this thread are still there.

Seems pretty obvious that someone senior at Garmin doesnt give a crap.

They really should.
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:00 PM   #256
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Hey Jim PM me and I will get you out a HD base map tomorrow if that will help you. If the card I sent is now locked I will help with that as well.
OK, thanks, got the card just have not had time to get to the boat and try it.

Jim
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:05 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by Yrral3215 View Post
hehehe Thats exactly what I said back at the very beginning of this thread, but no one wants to think about that. Some computer has generated those extra contour lines.

Unless Garmin and Navionics have had a boat with multi-beam sonar gear, and hi precision GPS gear, actually scan every single square foot of the entire Pacific and Atlantic oceans,or at least the coastal waters, those 1 ft contours are no better than the old 7 ft contours.

They are just pretty pictures to make you feel good. Marketing hype in other words.

This applies to Navionics and every other brand of charts out there. No one has done that level of scanning and it will be many decades before even a small percentage of it is scanned - even just the coastal waters is a huge area -.

At the moment I think all you can expect is maybe portions of major harbors - maybe.

I have no real idea who is or is not doing that sort of active ongoing scanning other than Garmin scanning large numbers of new lakes every year. They dont talk about doing marine areas and as far as I know neither does Navionics. I think Navionics takes some data from users, but I have my doubts about that source of data being useful for 1 ft contours.

Bottom line, I agree with you. For the vast majority of marine waters, this is a lot of fuss about computer generated, imaginary contours.

The little "side issue" of Garmin support being unreliable and the website errors is far more important in my mind. Its been almost a week now since Garmin acknowledged that the website had the map information wrong on the new models web pages - and its still not fixed. In fact, ALL of the errors we have brought up in this thread are still there.

Seems pretty obvious that someone senior at Garmin doesnt give a crap.

They really should.
How do you know these are computer generated contour lines? or are you just assuming they are?


I am good with real issues, but lets make sure we do not create issues that do not exist. Hopefully Todd will jump in and explain how these new contours are created or maybe you already have proof these are computer generated ?







Jim
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Old 03-21-2017, 05:03 PM   #258
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I believe in the conspiracy. It's just more pencil lines drawn in the computer. No new info, they just drew between the existing lines to make it look cooler.

However I find this better than the basic map and bought to updated charts anyway. Anything helps. Hopefully Quickdraw can help out a little bit this year. Haven't really used it
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:57 PM   #259
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How do you know these are computer generated contour lines? or are you just assuming they are?


I am good with real issues, but lets make sure we do not create issues that do not exist. Hopefully Todd will jump in and explain how these new contours are created or maybe you already have proof these are computer generated ?

Jim
Like I said, in some areas , like major harbors and some shipping lanes, Im sure they are real, but it has to be an area thats been scanned in enough detail to justify a 1 ft contour interval. That means every square foot has to be scanned with hi end sonar and GPS equipment or the lines are going to be interpolated and not real.

We all know how far off many of the NOAA spot soundings can be on existing charts and how far apart they are in most areas. That data does not support 1 ft intervals. Even 7 ft intervals are mostly imaginary detail.

NOAA says the US has 95,439 miles of shoreline. Even if you only covered an area one mile off shore, thats 95000 square miles to survey.

If your survey gear could do lets say a 100 ft wide swath with multi-beam sonar (thats being generous), that works out to 5,058,267 linear miles to drive a survey boat over the entire area just 1 mile wide. If you cover the entire territorial waters, that’s 60,699,204 miles to drive that boat.

Lets say the average survey speed was 20 mph. That’s the max speed you can use a Panoptix transducer. No way they could average that in real world conditions, and get good results, but lets go there anyway. Lets also assume perfect weather every where they wanted to go on every day they went out.

Just to do the 1 mile wide stretch would take 29 years if they drove the boat 20 MPH for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the full 29 years. If they only worked 8 hours days and took a few holidays, thats more than a 100+ year project - at a minimum to do just the 1 mile wide stretch.

That’s why it hasn’t been done already. Its an impossible task for anyone but the US Government and they don’t have the budget.

At most, there are a few small areas where 7 ft contours are justified and even fewer where 1 ft are going to be real contour and not some computers best guess.
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Old 03-21-2017, 09:46 PM   #260
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thank god for satellites and freekn lazer beams. Not sure how many will get that. Its all done in a computer. Only way it can be done. As far as 1ft accuracy there arent any google cars running around out there so its all done from above. It can be accurate and it can be extrapolated within a margin of error. Its not something a Navy Sub relies on but it gives you a lay of the land. Now ceemor mapping will be pretty cool.
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