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Garmin Fantom 4 vs 1224 xHD2 Open Array

Old 09-24-2016, 11:32 AM
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Default Garmin Fantom 4 vs 1224 xHD2 Open Array

I'm buying electronics for my new boat and I'm having trouble deciding between the new Fantom 4 and the proven GM 1224 xHD2 Open Array.

Any advice or help would be appreciated. I don't mind spending the extra money for the Fantom but not sure what the differences are.
Old 09-24-2016, 11:49 AM
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Your desired use and budget would really dictate the selection of these two units.

If you want the very latest in technology to include Doppler I would go with the Fantom for sure. This in my opinion is the best radar that Garmin has released to date. We have installed a few in both the 4 and 6 foot arrays and customers have loved them. I have also personally used both and they are worth the investment.

So that is what would get my vote if your budget allows.

Mike
Old 09-24-2016, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by semperfifishing View Post
What size boat ?...and are you using the radar for safety only or for birds also?
One consideration about the xHD2 is they are often available in a reman..so a good bit of $ savings..and one still has the 2 year warranty.




Its going on a 30' Contender and I'll be using it for fishing and safety.

I have received some great pricing on both but there's still about a $900 difference.
Old 09-24-2016, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by caracal25 View Post
Its going on a 30' Contender and I'll be using it for fishing and safety.

I have received some great pricing on both but there's still about a $900 difference.
For the $900.00 difference and you using it for fishing I would go with the Fantom. The technology is far superior.

Mike

Last edited by InternationalMarineMike; 11-05-2016 at 01:05 PM.
Old 09-24-2016, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by semperfifishing View Post
What size boat ?...and are you using the radar for safety only or for birds also?
One consideration about the xHD2 is they are often available in a reman..so a good bit of $ savings..and one still has the 2 year warranty.






I believe all Garmin remanufactured radars only have a 90 day warranty from Garmin.

Mike

Last edited by InternationalMarineMike; 09-26-2016 at 04:50 AM. Reason: spelling
Old 09-24-2016, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by caracal25 View Post
Its going on a 30' Contender and I'll be using it for fishing and safety.

I have received some great pricing on both but there's still about a $900 difference.

I think one feature of the Fantom that will be a postive is the Auto Gain Bird mode....in the Motion Scope.
Basically using the doppler effect for better moving target detection.
If for fishing and birds..I would lean to the Fantom.



Old 09-24-2016, 10:29 PM
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Thanks guys for the input....Ordered the Fantom
Old 09-25-2016, 01:06 AM
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Originally Posted by InternationalMarineMike View Post
For the $900.00 difference and you using it for fishing I would go with the Fantom. The technology is far superior.

Mike
It gets frustrating after a while that the electronics dealers always seem to simplify these choices and promote the manufacturers "latest and greatest" product. Low power solid state radar such as the Fantom has advantages and disadvantages. It will do some things better, particularly close target display. The Doppler processing will help some people identify targets that pose a threat more easily than using ARPA and echo trails. But can the Fantom do anything that a properly tuned high power conventional magnetron radar can't do apart from very close target display? Well, probably not from the available performance specifications. Can the magnetron do anything the Fantom cannot do as well? Probably yes -- better long range target display and better ability to penetrate rain and heavy fog.

There is an awful lot of signal processing magic involved in the new solid state radars. Cleaned up enhanced images may look better, but that does not mean the radar is actually performing better. We heard the same hype when the Simard 3G and 4G were introduced but in the field it became clear that their long range target detection was inferior to conventional radars.

So the original poster is right to ask what the trade off might be between the two radar units. I would tend to agree that for many people, the Fantom will provide an easier to use system with valuable advantages including the safety benefit of not having a high energy microwave beam. Some day consumer solid state radar will no doubt provide better overall performance. Not sure we are there yet.
Old 09-25-2016, 04:52 AM
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The leisure marine solid state radar are already today significantly better than comparable magnetron radars. But we have to compare with a radar with similar range performance. Halo (25 W transmit power) is by Simrad claimed to have range performance as a 6 kW magnetron radar, this is documented by several comparison screen shots. The other statements we have are from Kelvin Hughes and JRC for their IMO S-band radars. KH is comparing their 200 W SharpEye with a 25 kW conventional, JRC is stating their 250 W is comparable or better than a 30 kW magnetron radar.

I've plotted the stated relationships between power for these three radars in a chart and added a trend line. Based on this we can assume fantom with 50 W transmit power is comparable to a 8 - 8.5 kW magnetron radar when it comes to max usable range.

Name:  radar_zpsixkq2crs.png
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This is valid for pulse compression radars, the 3G and 4G BroadBand radars are different because they use FMCW instead of pulse compression. I don't find BroadBand radar hyped, it was a revolution when it comes to short and medium range performance and this was what Navico markedet to be. The original BR24 has a bit worse range performance than a conventional 2 kW 18', the 3G better than 2 kW 18' and 4G comparable to a 4kW 18'. The 4G has in addition the benefit of the target sharpening which by signal processing is bringing the horizontal beam down to 2.4 degrees.

The large advantage of solid state radar is the much more advanced signal processing which can be done, and I'm sure we have only seen the start of it.

For those needing to see birds at max distance 25 kW is still the best for a leisure boat, but for the rest of us solid state is the way to go. Improved short to medium range performance and doppler processing are the main advantages. Simrad and Garmin will soon bring doppler processing to their solid state open arrays, Furuno is already offering it for their NXT dome.

Last edited by abbor; 09-25-2016 at 05:12 AM.
Old 09-25-2016, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by abbor View Post
The leisure marine solid state radar are already today significantly better than comparable magnetron radars. But we have to compare with a radar with similar range performance. Halo (25 W transmit power) is by Simrad claimed to have range performance as a 6 kW magnetron radar, this is documented by several comparison screen shots. The other statements we have are from Kelvin Hughes and JRC for their IMO S-band radars. KH is comparing their 200 W SharpEye with a 25 kW conventional, JRC is stating their 250 W is comparable or better than a 30 kW magnetron radar.

I've plotted the stated relationships between power for these three radars in a chart and added a trend line. Based on this we can assume fantom with 50 W transmit power is comparable to a 8 - 8.5 kW magnetron radar when it comes to max usable range.



This is valid for pulse compression radars, the 3G and 4G BroadBand radars are different because they use FMCW instead of pulse compression. I don't find BroadBand radar hyped, it was a revolution when it comes to short and medium range performance and this was what Navico markedet to be. The original BR24 has a bit worse range performance than a conventional 2 kW 18', the 3G better than 2 kW 18' and 4G comparable to a 4kW 18'. The 4G has in addition the benefit of the target sharpening which by signal processing is bringing the horizontal beam down to 2.4 degrees.

The large advantage of solid state radar is the much more advanced signal processing which can be done, and I'm sure we have only seen the start of it.

For those needing to see birds at max distance 25 kW is still the best for a leisure boat, but for the rest of us solid state is the way to go. Improved short to medium range performance and doppler processing are the main advantages. Simrad and Garmin will soon bring doppler processing to their solid state open arrays, Furuno is already offering it for their NXT dome.
Thanks, that is a better informed version of what I was trying to to say. The new solid state radars are a positive for most users because short and medium range is most critical. Magnetrons do some things better like long range. There is a bit of an issue establishing the right units to compare. It's not as straightforward as comparing a Garmin 6kw 4 foot array to a Furuno 6KW 4 foot array. Probably won't be too long before we see higher power solid state radars for the upper end of the consumer market and the "gold standard" for bird finding of the 25kW 6 foot array will lose its dominion.
Old 09-25-2016, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by ClassicGuy View Post
It gets frustrating after a while that the electronics dealers always seem to simplify these choices and promote the manufacturers "latest and greatest" product. Low power solid state radar such as the Fantom has advantages and disadvantages. It will do some things better, particularly close target display. The Doppler processing will help some people identify targets that pose a threat more easily than using ARPA and echo trails. But can the Fantom do anything that a properly tuned high power conventional magnetron radar can't do apart from very close target display? Well, probably not from the available performance specifications. Can the magnetron do anything the Fantom cannot do as well? Probably yes -- better long range target display and better ability to penetrate rain and heavy fog.

There is an awful lot of signal processing magic involved in the new solid state radars. Cleaned up enhanced images may look better, but that does not mean the radar is actually performing better. We heard the same hype when the Simard 3G and 4G were introduced but in the field it became clear that their long range target detection was inferior to conventional radars.

So the original poster is right to ask what the trade off might be between the two radar units. I would tend to agree that for many people, the Fantom will provide an easier to use system with valuable advantages including the safety benefit of not having a high energy microwave beam. Some day consumer solid state radar will no doubt provide better overall performance. Not sure we are there yet.


Thanks your taking the time out to respond that is what THT is all about. I really feel that Doppler effect to detect and highlight moving targets to help avoid collisions, find flocks of birds and track weather are worth the extra money to me. If you take a look at the very first sentence of my post I stated it really would deepened on his use and what he is looking to accomplish. I also ways tend to lean towards saving guys money when it is appropriate. In some cases when you are building a system the extra money may be worth it. I like the features and technology associated with his radar so to me it is no brainer.

Mike
Old 09-26-2016, 03:45 PM
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I took the time to speak with Garmin about this as well. NO GARMIN Remans have a two year warranty. It is either a 1 year or 90 days.

I think it is very important that you know exactly what you are getting when you purchase a product. I for one think warranty coverage should be looked at when purchasing a high dollar item in any industry.

He is the direct answer:

Newly Overhauled (NOH) is product that has not been operated or placed in sales or service, except for
functional testing, since having been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired and reassembled.
NOH products are numbered as 010-NXXXX-XX (010-N) and 011-NXXXX-XX (011-N). 010-N sales
product contain all applicable accessories, packaged in a box, subject to Garmin regulated pricing and
carry the Garmin One Year Limited Warranty. 011-N service product are a head unit only, no
accessories, packaged in a bubble bag, can not be sold and carry the Garmin 90 Day Limited
Warranty.

Last edited by InternationalMarineMike; 09-27-2016 at 04:44 AM.
Old 09-26-2016, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by InternationalMarineMike View Post
I took the time to speak with Garmin about this as well. NO GARMIN Remans have a two year warranty. It is either a 1 year or 90 days. I got this from the national warranty manager directly.

I think it is very important that you know exactly what you are getting when you purchase a product. I for one think warranty coverage should be looked at when purchasing a high dollar item in any industry.

He is the direct answer:

Newly Overhauled (NOH) is product that has not been operated or placed in sales or service, except for
functional testing, since having been disassembled, cleaned, inspected, repaired and reassembled.
NOH products are numbered as 010-NXXXX-XX (010-N) and 011-NXXXX-XX (011-N). 010-N sales
product contain all applicable accessories, packaged in a box, subject to Garmin regulated pricing and
carry the Garmin One Year Limited Warranty. 011-N service product are a head unit only, no
accessories, packaged in a bubble bag, can not be sold and carry the Garmin 90 Day Limited
Warranty.
Thanks for the info Mike but this stuff is too important to me to save some $$ on a reman.

I ordered the Fantom 4 and I appreciate the advice from everyone.
Old 09-26-2016, 05:06 PM
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Yes I agree. I like your choice for sure, good call.
Old 10-18-2016, 02:03 AM
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I think the other thing we need to consider here is the size of boat a radar is being fitted to and the associated radar horizon. Whilst 25KW magnetron has some advantage over solid state in long range application, I suspect this advantage only exists where the radar is mounted at sufficient height to avoid the radar horizon.

For example: A radar mounted on a 30 foot boat, 10 feet above waterline, trying to spot birds at 30 feet will have a radar horizon of 11 nautical miles. I suspect a 25KW magnetron radar would have little or no advantage over a 50W solid state radar at 11 nautical miles. Would this be correct?
Old 10-18-2016, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by denetnz View Post
I think the other thing we need to consider here is the size of boat a radar is being fitted to and the associated radar horizon. Whilst 25KW magnetron has some advantage over solid state in long range application, I suspect this advantage only exists where the radar is mounted at sufficient height to avoid the radar horizon.

For example: A radar mounted on a 30 foot boat, 10 feet above waterline, trying to spot birds at 30 feet will have a radar horizon of 11 nautical miles. I suspect a 25KW magnetron radar would have little or no advantage over a 50W solid state radar at 11 nautical miles. Would this be correct?
I have found the limitations stated on radar horizon calculators to be highly flawed and have posted numerous screenshots that seemingly defy the stated limitations by a considerable margin. While I think you are absolutely correct in stating a radar is limited by it's height and horizon limitations, the distances and how they are calculated have proven (in my case) to be ultra conservative and not a good indicator of real world usable range to see targets.
Old 10-18-2016, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by denetnz View Post
I think the other thing we need to consider here is the size of boat a radar is being fitted to and the associated radar horizon. Whilst 25KW magnetron has some advantage over solid state in long range application, I suspect this advantage only exists where the radar is mounted at sufficient height to avoid the radar horizon.

For example: A radar mounted on a 30 foot boat, 10 feet above waterline, trying to spot birds at 30 feet will have a radar horizon of 11 nautical miles. I suspect a 25KW magnetron radar would have little or no advantage over a 50W solid state radar at 11 nautical miles. Would this be correct?
There are many other things going on that determine the performance differences between a 6kW and a 12Kw or 25kW besides very long range performance of near surface targets that might be constrained by the line of sight horizon. For example, high targets such as thunderstorm cells would not be limited. Very small, weak reflecting targets will be more likely to produce a return with the higher power units. That's why you usually see 25kW units on larger sportfishing boats that are looking for birds.
Old 10-18-2016, 04:15 PM
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I'm trying to make the same decision....my primary reason for considering either radar would be to find birds. I'm leaning towards the phantom as well, but would like to get some more feedback from users on both models.
Thanks
Old 10-19-2016, 01:13 PM
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The big advantage to me for the fantom is the safety issue regarding RF exposure. Much lower power with great performance out to medium range.

Jim
Old 10-25-2016, 04:40 AM
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Originally Posted by caracal25 View Post
Thanks for the info Mike but this stuff is too important to me to save some $$ on a reman.

I ordered the Fantom 4 and I appreciate the advice from everyone.
Any updates on the Fantom install and performance?


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