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Ultra Wide CHIRP

Old 06-15-2016, 11:00 AM
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Default Ultra Wide CHIRP

NEW Airmar Ultra Wide Chirp
June 2016
A few times in our careers a new technology will come along that is truly ground-breaking, changing the game as we know it. In early 2011 we all witnessed Airmar's introduction of Chirp-Ready transducers - literally triggering a revolution in sonar technology. It is hard to believe that the current Chirp transducer offering could possibly get any better. Nearly 5 years in development and hundreds of hours of fishing by some of the top captains in the world has resulted in the introduction of Airmar's new Chirp Ultra Wide transducers
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...is just one of the many positive comments we have received from those who have experienced the incredible performance of the new PM411 and R409 Chirp Ultra Wide models.

Featuring a full 2kW of power handling at both frequencies and the pairing of a MEDIUM band with a game-changing LOW WIDE band, these new models are producing fish images like you've never seen before. The MEDIUM frequency leverages the proven 2kW 80-130 kHz, featuring a 13 to 8 degree variable beam width. What's groundbreaking however is the LOW WIDE band, featuring a full 40 degrees of fixed beam width and a 40-60kHz frequency range. This new LOW WIDE frequency band delivers unprecedented, deep sonar penetration while the massive 40 degree cone angle exposes more fish, producing the tell-tale arch and clearly defining the targets below. This new Chirp Ultra Wide series has changed the game once again.


Both transducers are designed to be installed as new or easily retrofitted in place of an existing PM111/CM599 or R109/R509. The intended customer for these products is the same customer who would buy any other 2 or 3kW Chirp transducer. Where these models really excel are when fishing for pelagic species such as Tuna, Marlin, Sail and Swordfish. Although the LOW WIDE ceilings at around 4500 feet of water depth, it covers a massive volume of the water column due to its 40 degree cone angle. The wide angle also produces the desired "arch" affect, even for a single fish in very deep water.

Old 06-15-2016, 07:46 PM
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Damn thing is so big though. I'd love to get one but how are these guys installing it? Isn't it like 6" wide?
Old 06-15-2016, 08:38 PM
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Having equipped my current boat with a GT51 and a Panoptix, I can tell you that my next boat will have a GSD26 with the biggest baddest chirp transducer that Airmar makes. The Panoptix is useless offshore or bottom fishing 80+ ft, side Vu and Down Vu are cool toys also, but when I really want to see the fish I use the chirp. I regret buying the Panoptix and GT51. But if I had never tried it I would have always wondered.
Old 06-27-2016, 04:02 PM
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Good to see a little visibility of this product! I used to work at Airmar and was very involved in the design of this transducer. I've also spent several days aboard a sportfishing boat that was testing a prototype. Everyone involved was very excited about the peformance.

I do not represent Airmar, but I may be able answer some questions people might have about this transducer. No proprietary details of course.

Personally, I like to think of it as a high power, high resolution, modernized P66. The classic 50/200 is a pretty good fishing tool - the wide LF beam searches a wide area, and the narrow HF beam gives you bottom detail and also tells you when a target is immediately below you. A good range balance is struck with the 50/200 as well - the 50 kHz is absorbed less by water but it has a wider beam (energy less focused), and vice-versa for the 200 kHz. In the end, they have a similar range.

That's what you get with the ultrawide, but supersized! The LF element has a wide beam, but it also is broadband and can handle 2 kW, so it can see 4000 ft deep and with good resolution. The mid frequency element also handles 2 kW, is broadband, and has a 8-13 deg beam. The 80-130 range seems to be just right - it can see 3000-4000 ft down and has a useful beamwidth. Higher frequencies have a little too much absorption to get that kind of range and the beamwidth gets a bit too narrow to be useful. Lowering the frequency below 80 would put it too close to the LF element. As is, you get a good range balance and cover a lot of frequencies.
Old 06-27-2016, 04:19 PM
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One thing I don't understand, if the transducer is covering say a 500 ft circle of the bottom how do you figure out where the fish are on the bottom?
Old 06-27-2016, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by VanW View Post
One thing I don't understand, if the transducer is covering say a 500 ft circle of the bottom how do you figure out where the fish are on the bottom?

Once you locate the fish in the larger cone you zero in with narrower cones from other transducers or you work on bringing the fish to you by jigging, chunking etc. If on the troll its not about running over the fish its about being in the area and your baits working to bring the fish in
Old 06-27-2016, 07:38 PM
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Did i miss the price somewhere? Also, is this a transom mount, shoot thru, etc?
Old 06-27-2016, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by vettnman View Post
Did i miss the price somewhere? Also, is this a transom mount, shoot thru, etc?
I think it's in hull or pocket mount.
Old 06-27-2016, 08:38 PM
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Overall Height......... 102mm (4.01")

Overall Width......... 139mm (5.48")

Overall Length.......... 570mm (22.44")

wow, bigger than a loaf of sliced bread !

http://www.millport57995489.us/r409.php
Old 06-28-2016, 01:01 AM
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Not sure I get these wide CHIRP units......CHIRP provides heaps more detail, but costs more, and now with the ultra WIDE, you get to pay a heap more AND HAVE LESS DETAIL......just to get nice big arches......why not just use a good old Airmar P66......45 degree cone, hey presto. Just joking, but it does appear a bit weird.


I just got an el Cheapo Garmin 550c with 120 degree 77 kHz transducer for my dingy (I run Garmin 7410's and B265 in the big boat). I recon a squid will show up as a massive arch!!! haha
Old 06-28-2016, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by VanW View Post
I think it's in hull or pocket mount.
Thx. Too big for a small boat looks like
Old 06-28-2016, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Conquest235 View Post
Not sure I get these wide CHIRP units......CHIRP provides heaps more detail, but costs more, and now with the ultra WIDE, you get to pay a heap more AND HAVE LESS DETAIL......just to get nice big arches......why not just use a good old Airmar P66......45 degree cone, hey presto. Just joking, but it does appear a bit weird.
There are two kinds of detail you are talking about here:

Beamwidth: narrow beams can give you more bottom detail and tell you more precisely the location of any target because it has to be right below you. The wide beam smears the bottom detail, and also gives more ambiguity in target location. This is mostly about lateral or horizontal resolution.

Chirp vs. pulse: using a chirp gives you better range resolution. This is mostly a vertical resolution on the screen. A wide beam + chirp gives you well defined (thin) arches. A fairly extreme example of this is the HW element of the B275. That has a 25 deg beam, moderately wide, but huge bandwidth (150-250 kHz) which means tiny range resolution. If you search around you can find images where fish are very clearly separated and respresented by thin lines, but you also get significant arches. The LF element of the ultrawide is a little wider in beamwidth (bigger arches) and has less range resolution - but still very good compared to the 50 kHz of a P66.

The idea is you use the two elements together. You get a big search area with the LF element, with good range resolution and the ability to see as deep as most need to. The mid element has a narrower beamwidth to provide you with bottom detail and more precise information on targets below you. The mid element has a frequency that allows it to also see quite deep, and it has the bandwidth to give exceptional range detail. Between the two elements you cover all of your bases.

The P66 is a pretty damn good transducer! You get the wide LF for detection area and the narrow HF for bottom detail and determining when a target is right under the boat. The problems are:

- range resolution (targets not super defined)
- depth capability (range)

By using high power, broadband transducers with chirp, and selecting frequencies properly, you can overcome those limitations. That is what the ultrawide is.


Originally Posted by Conquest235 View Post
I just got an el Cheapo Garmin 550c with 120 degree 77 kHz transducer for my dingy (I run Garmin 7410's and B265 in the big boat). I recon a squid will show up as a massive arch!!! haha
The way beamwidth is defined varies from source to source. By the standard Airmar uses (-3 dB), all of the transducers 200/50, 200/83, 200/77 end up being 40-50 degrees for the LF. I don't know what definition they are using to call it 120 degrees, but it's very unlikely the same as how Airmar defines it.
Old 06-28-2016, 08:52 AM
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Lowrance 83/200 (HST-WSBL/HDI) has 60 degrees cone angle (-3dB) at 83kHz. At short distances and with relatively high gain the huge sidelobes will increase the coverage to about 120 degrees. Here we are talking usable coverage, not -3dB specification. The image below is just an example of how sidelobes may look, this is far from the Lowrance 83/200.

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Old 06-28-2016, 09:43 AM
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Is that the one below? I see 52 deg as the spec.

http://www.lowrance.com/en-US/Produc...cer-en-us.aspx


I agree sidelobes will pick stuff up, but faintly. Usually the first side lobe is -20 to -13 dB one-way, which means transmit + receive is -40 to -26 dB. That is a best case scenario of 0.25% of the energy returned for the same target on the peak of the side lobe compared to on-axis (straight down). I've definitely seen screen shots where targets get picked up in the side lobes, but in general it's pretty weak compared to the main beam. "Usable" here seems conditional and optimistic.

I suspect that's not where the 120 degree rating comes from though. Those wide LF elements generally don't have side lobes until you are way way off axis. I could be wrong, but I'm guessing they used a -10 dB criterion. Humminbird does that and they also get inflated numbers. A polar plot would settle the question.
Old 06-28-2016, 01:50 PM
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The -3dB spec is 60 degrees. The 120 degrees doesn't have a specification, there are no polar plots available for Lowrance transducers. When trolling at 300' I'm sure I've seen targets outside the 60 degree cone at 30' and less from the surface.

I'm currently using B175H-W, B75H or TM265LH and I don't need the ultra wide transducers. See the screen shot below from B175H-W and TM265L, with larger coverage it would have been a complete mess.

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Old 06-28-2016, 02:24 PM
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What kinda fish are those abbor?
Old 06-28-2016, 02:38 PM
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Mostly whitefish.
Old 06-28-2016, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by abbor View Post
Mostly whitefish.
So they are like 50 cm? Just wondering how some big fish would look on there.
Old 06-28-2016, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by abbor View Post
I'm currently using B175H-W, B75H or TM265LH and I don't need the ultra wide transducers. See the screen shot below from B175H-W and TM265L, with larger coverage it would have been a complete mess.
You have a good set of available transducers:

150-250A: 25 deg beam, 150-250 kHz
130-210D: 15-9 deg beam, 130-210 kHz
42-65A: 25-16 deg beam, 42-65 kHz
130-210C: 10-6 deg beam, 130-210 kHz

Note that in the case of the ultrawide, the mid element basically takes the place of the two 130-210 elements. It has a similar narrow beamwidth, but can go significantly deeper because it is lower in frequency and handles 2x the power.

To your comment about the wide beam, that is fair. A test boat for the ultrawide also had a SS275 installed and I spent a lot of time looking at images from the 150-250A and 42-65A compared to the ultrawide LF and medium elements. The wide beam does smear things somewhat, both because of the wide beam and the lower frequency, but the effect is not as dramatic as you might expect. It is not the absolute best element for seeing individual small fish within a school 60 ft under the surface.

But that is not the goal of the LF element. The primary goal is detection. In that regard, it will pick up targets that both the 42-65 and 150-250 miss - targets outside of their beam. It will also be usable deeper than both of those elements - significantly deeper than the 150-250 which functions best at 500 ft or less.

The idea is that by viewing the medium narrower element and wide low element simultaneously you can both get great detection and target resolution. Where the low element smears things together, you use the medium to differentiate. You also get usability of both elements deep (3000+). You cannot get that full package using any other combo. You have to sacrifice something - depth capability, detection capability, bottom resolution, etc. If you're out in deepish water looking for large gamefish, I don't think you can find a better tool. That's not by coincidence - the drive and goals for this product came from big time fishermen who are also expert sonar users.

That's not the package everyone wants or needs for sure. The 275/265 and single element versions of those are great transducers. The pocket mount will also be a show stopper for some. I don't know if there is a smaller version in the works or not - enough demand could get something kickstarted.

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