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3 ouput Charger/Inverter/ ACR

Old 06-05-2016, 03:14 PM
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Default 3 ouput Charger/Inverter/ ACR

I have been searching for an Inverter/Charger that has 3 charge put puts. So far, none found.
Here is my situation: The boat has 2X Yanmar diesels with group 31 start battery for each engine. The house bank is a Group 24. It has a Guest isolator that combines the starboard start battery to the house battery. I think it is wired wrong as it has a jumper across the #1 and # 2 pole. See picture.
The House bank has far to little capacity for my needs. We fish at night on the anchor for 12 hours. The loads are: 10 Amp bait pump, Navigation light, Nav Net VS 1- 2, 7" displays and 1, 10" display. The boat has a Charles 20 amp charger. The boat has a micro wave oven, but it is only wired to the 120 volt panel.
I want to replace the 120 charger with a Charger/Inverter to run the microwave off the inverter. I also want to replace the group 24 house battery with 2- 6 Volt batteries in series for increased capacity.
The Guest isolator needs to be replaced, with a Combiner or ACR.
It looks like my house and starboard batteries are connected at the charger 3 out put. See the single line drawing attached.
The Yanmar alternators are only rated at 55 Amp.
If this all fails, I can go the Honda 2kW portable generator route. Although, I do not like the CO fumes.
Any ideas would be appreciated
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Old 06-05-2016, 04:47 PM
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While I have not sold a lot of inverter/charger combo units, I have never need more than 1 bank on them. They are all about charging the house and then using the house batteries through the inverter.

Any of my customers that needed additional charging picked up a second charger.
Old 06-05-2016, 04:50 PM
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Thanks Jason.

Any opinions on a Combiner or ACR?
Old 06-05-2016, 05:34 PM
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I imagine the microwave will determine the size of the inverter. Although it may only run for a few minutes it would draw a lot of power so its capacity must be rated high to run the microwave.

The charger I take it, will only be used at the dock where the mains is to power it.
So you need two separate pieces of equipment with differing specifications.
You are also putting all your eggs in one basket .

So I would suggest a stand alone separate battery charger with conventional multi bank output.

When motoring 2 ACRs each connected to the new larger house battery from each engine battery.
They will both close when engine batteries are charged but will combine 110 amp capacity from the both engine alternators.

I would also question the choice of 2 6 volt series batteries which will increase capacity, but restrict current. (Current is the same in parts of a series circuit) Parallel connection of 2 X 12 volt batteries would be of more use both for the high current demand of the inverter and also gives you the redundancy to use them to start the engine.

You may due to high draw of the inverter elect to use standard marine AGM Calcium batteries etc rather than deep cycle, in which case you can duty cycle new batteries as engine starters and then de-rate them to inverter use.
Old 06-06-2016, 06:17 AM
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Promariner Combi units have been good to my customers.
Old 06-06-2016, 06:58 AM
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Originally Posted by isitstuffed View Post
I imagine the microwave will determine the size of the inverter. Although it may only run for a few minutes it would draw a lot of power so its capacity must be rated high to run the microwave.

The charger I take it, will only be used at the dock where the mains is to power it.
So you need two separate pieces of equipment with differing specifications.
You are also putting all your eggs in one basket .

So I would suggest a stand alone separate battery charger with conventional multi bank output.

When motoring 2 ACRs each connected to the new larger house battery from each engine battery.
They will both close when engine batteries are charged but will combine 110 amp capacity from the both engine alternators.

I would also question the choice of 2 6 volt series batteries which will increase capacity, but restrict current. (Current is the same in parts of a series circuit) Parallel connection of 2 X 12 volt batteries would be of more use both for the high current demand of the inverter and also gives you the redundancy to use them to start the engine.

You may due to high draw of the inverter elect to use standard marine AGM Calcium batteries etc rather than deep cycle, in which case you can duty cycle new batteries as engine starters and then de-rate them to inverter use.
You are correct in that the charger is only used when at the dock.
I need to remove the microwave to determine its size. I think it is 1000 Watt. It will be used at sea too heat frozen food, maybe 1.5 minutes in 3 cycles back to back.
The current batteries are all sealed, lead acid and new in 2015, by the previous owner. I was hoping to not change the start batteries just yet. The charger that is on the boat is an older Charles, 20 amp, product that cannot switch to gel or AGM. How many amp charger should I replace this with?

I wanted to use 6 Volt deep cycle batteries for the house bank because it is my understanding that they recover better from a deep discharge better than starting batteries. So you suggest using starting batteries in the house bank?
I like the idea of having an ACR for each engine. If I used 2- ARC, how would they be wired? One to each house battery? I know they will be in parallel.

Did you view the attached single line drawing that I made up? The only place I can see that the starboard start battery and the house bank are connected is to the charger #3 output.
What do you think about the Guest Isolator? Is it wired wrong?

Thank you.
Old 06-06-2016, 07:40 PM
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if you put acr's between each engine and house battery (which you should anyways so both engines can charge the house) then the inverter / charger attached to the house bank will charge all 3 through the acrs.

you could also just leave the existing 20a charger in for the 2 start batteries.

2 golf carts is too small to run a ~2000w inveter. you'll probbaly want 4-6

yes there are a bunch of things wrong in that diagram.

Last edited by smac999; 06-06-2016 at 07:50 PM.
Old 06-07-2016, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by sharkwaters View Post
You are correct in that the charger is only used when at the dock.
I need to remove the microwave to determine its size. I think it is 1000 Watt. It will be used at sea too heat frozen food, maybe 1.5 minutes in 3 cycles back to back.
The current batteries are all sealed, lead acid and new in 2015, by the previous owner. I was hoping to not change the start batteries just yet. The charger that is on the boat is an older Charles, 20 amp, product that cannot switch to gel or AGM. How many amp charger should I replace this with? This is not the capacity.

I wanted to use 6 Volt deep cycle batteries for the house bank because it is my understanding that they recover better from a deep discharge better than starting batteries. So you suggest using starting batteries in the house bank?
I like the idea of having an ACR for each engine. If I used 2- ARC, how would they be wired? One to each house battery? I know they will be in parallel.

Did you view the attached single line drawing that I made up? The only place I can see that the starboard start battery and the house bank are connected is to the charger #3 output.
What do you think about the Guest Isolator? Is it wired wrong?

Thank you.
Yes I saw your drawing and a couple of issues came to the forefront.

1 The windlass should be on one of the engine batteries. Because it is a heavy load, and 'inductive' it risks damage to electronics also operating from the house battery. Besides it is common practice to run the engines before raising the anchor so the extra couple of volts and alternator amps improves the winches efficiency.

2 The jumper on the isolator for the stb engine is the charge from the alternator. It is the same as the port engine but does't have the alternator wired directly to the starter solenoid.

As for the rest I won't advise what you should do but make general comments for you to make up your own mind.

1 The Inverter should be a pure sinewave type. A 2000 Watt inverter working to capacity from 12.5 volt batteries would draw 160 Amps and would increase as the battery voltage dropped.. The current demand is limited by the batteries internal resistance to deliver it. This is evident by watching the battery voltage drop to say 8 volts or so volts when cranking. The demand is such the battery can't deliver it.

2 The microwave rating of 1000 Watts is the heating capacity and relates more to the instructions on the packets of stuff to heat, than what comes out the wall socket.
The true rating is more like 1250 Watts to allow for the motor and magnetron heater although inverter technology types are more efficient because running at 50% actually used 50% power continuously, conventional ones provide full power all the time but stopping and starting to provide the heating control.
Running this from the inverter is why I mentioned a true sinewave as the simulated sinewave type can cause issues with the electronics, frequencies and clocks. Without a clock a microwave is useless. I would consider replacing the microwave with inverter type as no turntable is used and good for use on moving boats.

3 Connecting 2 ACRs to the house battery as advised already is for the engines to charge the house batteries. Using the 3 bank charger does the job when no engines are running.
By connecting the ACRs on the 'engine side' of the battery switch for each engine they will will be isolated from the charger outputs, if the charger outputs are on the battery side of the switches. This way you can isolate the vessel from power (except for bilge pump and radio memory) and run the charger without the ACRs affecting the charger.

4 Battery configuration for the house. Connecting 2 X 12 volts in parallel doubles the plate area and halves the internal resistance so will supply the inverter far more efficiently with a large current demand, as per my comments in 1.
Connecting 2 X 6 volts will increase capacity but are still 6 cells in series with an increase in resistance which would struggle to supply the inverter. The usual reason for series connecting is to increase voltage by joining 2 X 12 volt batteries to make 24 volts which in turn halves current requirement due to using 24 volt equipment.
As for deep cycle batteries. The construction relating the plates determines what they are ....if the house battery is configured to be able to charge from two engines and the inverter requires a heavy current then deep cycle will be questionable. I would look at dual function types which are supposedly able to provide heavy starting current and deep discharge as well. As 2 batteries would be providing the current, each would supply half and the capacity would be double.
Been adding to this all day, hope it helps.
Old 06-07-2016, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
if you put acr's between each engine and house battery (which you should anyways so both engines can charge the house) then the inverter / charger attached to the house bank will charge all 3 through the acrs.

you could also just leave the existing 20a charger in for the 2 start batteries.

2 golf carts is too small to run a ~2000w inveter. you'll probbaly want 4-6

yes there are a bunch of things wrong in that diagram.
Thank you for the reply. Would 2- Group 27 or Group 31, in parallel supply enough to run the microwave?

Thank you
Old 06-07-2016, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by isitstuffed View Post
Yes I saw your drawing and a couple of issues came to the forefront.

1 The windlass should be on one of the engine batteries. Because it is a heavy load, and 'inductive' it risks damage to electronics also operating from the house battery. Besides it is common practice to run the engines before raising the anchor so the extra couple of volts and alternator amps improves the winches efficiency.

2 The jumper on the isolator for the stb engine is the charge from the alternator. It is the same as the port engine but does't have the alternator wired directly to the starter solenoid.

As for the rest I won't advise what you should do but make general comments for you to make up your own mind.

1 The Inverter should be a pure sinewave type. A 2000 Watt inverter working to capacity from 12.5 volt batteries would draw 160 Amps and would increase as the battery voltage dropped.. The current demand is limited by the batteries internal resistance to deliver it. This is evident by watching the battery voltage drop to say 8 volts or so volts when cranking. The demand is such the battery can't deliver it.

2 The microwave rating of 1000 Watts is the heating capacity and relates more to the instructions on the packets of stuff to heat, than what comes out the wall socket.
The true rating is more like 1250 Watts to allow for the motor and magnetron heater although inverter technology types are more efficient because running at 50% actually used 50% power continuously, conventional ones provide full power all the time but stopping and starting to provide the heating control.
Running this from the inverter is why I mentioned a true sinewave as the simulated sinewave type can cause issues with the electronics, frequencies and clocks. Without a clock a microwave is useless. I would consider replacing the microwave with inverter type as no turntable is used and good for use on moving boats.

3 Connecting 2 ACRs to the house battery as advised already is for the engines to charge the house batteries. Using the 3 bank charger does the job when no engines are running.
By connecting the ACRs on the 'engine side' of the battery switch for each engine they will will be isolated from the charger outputs, if the charger outputs are on the battery side of the switches. This way you can isolate the vessel from power (except for bilge pump and radio memory) and run the charger without the ACRs affecting the charger.

4 Battery configuration for the house. Connecting 2 X 12 volts in parallel doubles the plate area and halves the internal resistance so will supply the inverter far more efficiently with a large current demand, as per my comments in 1.
Connecting 2 X 6 volts will increase capacity but are still 6 cells in series with an increase in resistance which would struggle to supply the inverter. The usual reason for series connecting is to increase voltage by joining 2 X 12 volt batteries to make 24 volts which in turn halves current requirement due to using 24 volt equipment.
As for deep cycle batteries. The construction relating the plates determines what they are ....if the house battery is configured to be able to charge from two engines and the inverter requires a heavy current then deep cycle will be questionable. I would look at dual function types which are supposedly able to provide heavy starting current and deep discharge as well. As 2 batteries would be providing the current, each would supply half and the capacity would be double.
Been adding to this all day, hope it helps.
Thank you. It helps a lot.

I will choose a pure sine wave inverter.
I like the idea of having an ACR on both starting batteries to the house.
I saw the batteries that are rated as starting/deep cycle.
The alternators have internal regulators, no sense wire.
I will connect the windlass to one of the starting batteries. I agree that both engines will be running when hauling the anchor and that should help it along.

Am I correct in my assessment that the Starboard battery and the House battery are connected at the Charger 3 out put via the isolator?


Thanks.
Old 06-07-2016, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by isitstuffed View Post
2 The jumper on the isolator for the stb engine is the charge from the alternator. It is the same as the port engine but does't have the alternator wired directly to the starter solenoid.

A.


the jumper allows the stb engine battery to drain into the house battery with the engines off. it's totally wrong and I have no idea why it's there. take the jumper off and the isolator will act as intended. but acrs are a better way to go.

Connecting 2 ACRs to the house battery as advised already is for the engines to charge the house batteries. Using the 3 bank charger does the job when no engines are running.
By connecting the ACRs on the 'engine side' of the battery switch for each engine they will will be isolated from the charger outputs, if the charger outputs are on the battery side of the switches. This way you can isolate the vessel from power (except for bilge pump and radio memory) and run the charger without the ACRs affecting the charger.
you can't connect ACR's to the load side of switches, it screws everything up.
Old 06-08-2016, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by smac999 View Post



you can't connect ACR's to the load side of switches, it screws everything up.
Can't think of a reason why not. The load side of the battery switches are the engines. To say "it screws everything up" without any explanation as to why you think that, is inconsiderate to the OP who has come here for help, not one liners introducing confusion.

The battery switches must be normally closed to start the engines and run them.
The ACRs are only then connected and charging the house bank, so technically the battery switches, when closed 'don't exist' and subsequently there is only the load, which are the engines.
Old 06-08-2016, 09:23 AM
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smac.

I'm not sure why the jumper is place, but I agree that it is why both batteries drained down on my night time trip. The more I study the single line drawing, I realize that I need to make a redesign on the charging system when I add the inverter and either ACR or Combiner.

Why is it not a good practice to connect the ACR to the load side of the battery switch? My thought is that engine running, switch on,alternator on- house and start battery are both charging and ACR controller charge process. Engine off, switch on, alternator off- the only drain on the house is the bilge pump always hot.
Next scenario. Engine off, switch off, charger on, alternator off. Charger is charging batteries. Since I have to rewire the system, I can run and connect to any point in the system to get a good measurement of load and charge from alternators and ACR.
Thanks
Old 06-08-2016, 09:53 PM
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the issues with the ACR's on the laod side of switches. is when the acr is engauged IE engines running or battery charger on, (and they stay enguaged for up to ~30 mins after stoping engines or unplugging)

and you turn one of the switches off, say the engine battery switch. the acr stays on (beause you have over 13v on both sides, and will continue to have 13v on both sides as it's just a closed relay) and will pass power from the house battery through the ACR to the load side of the engine switch, keeping the engine hot, even though the engine switch is off. a big surprise for a mechanic that just turned off the engine switch to do work. or vise vrs. turning off the house switch and all the house loads remained power from the engine bank. one of these days I'll have to make a video. I've had to correct this on many boats. if you have the single dual cct switch it's not an issue as one switch turns both loads off. but with 3 banks you'll have more then one switch.

the only way to prevent this issue would be if bluesea programed the acrs to release every ~30 secs to check the voltage of both sides and then recombined. but this would cause havok while charging.

the acr's don't engage when the voltage is under 9v on either side (battery switch off) but if a switch is turned off when it's already engauged, since the acr is closed both sides of it simply remain at 13v and it won't disengage untill the batteries drain back down to 12.8 or whatever it's set at.

it's really funny to walk onto a boat. turn off the shore power, turn off the house battery switch. and watch the cabin lights turn off 20 mins later when the acr disengages from the voltage set point as the engine battery drains down.
Old 06-09-2016, 03:00 AM
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Originally Posted by sharkwaters View Post
Thank you. It helps a lot.

Am I correct in my assessment that the Starboard battery and the House battery are connected at the Charger 3 out put via the isolator?


Thanks.
The Isolator is supposed to be a single pole 2 position changeover switch but the addition of the link makes it a single pole on/off switch. Quite normal and serves 2 purposes.

The link has been added to ensure the switching of the Isolator prevents the alternator becoming open circuit with no battery connected and preventing damage.

The connection at charger CB 3 enables the charger or the starboard engine to charge both its own battery and the house bank.

The only issue of concern is the ability for the house battery to crank the stb engine via the Isolator jumper 3 to charger 3 CB to House battery.
I think someone has solved one problem and created another but if the cable size is large enough it may be OK. The only thing I need to know to confirm the above comments is if whether or not the ignition key operates the Isolator.
Old 06-09-2016, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by isitstuffed View Post
The Isolator is supposed to be a single pole 2 position changeover switch but the addition of the link makes it a single pole on/off switch. Quite normal and serves 2 purposes.

The link has been added to ensure the switching of the Isolator prevents the alternator becoming open circuit with no battery connected and preventing damage.

The connection at charger CB 3 enables the charger or the starboard engine to charge both its own battery and the house bank.

The only issue of concern is the ability for the house battery to crank the stb engine via the Isolator jumper 3 to charger 3 CB to House battery.
I think someone has solved one problem and created another but if the cable size is large enough it may be OK. The only thing I need to know to confirm the above comments is if whether or not the ignition key operates the Isolator.
1- The ignition key is not connected to the isolator.
2- The charge wire to the isolator and the batteries look like # 8 AWG. The primary wire to the starter looks like 2/0 AWG. I do not think the cable size is proper to allow the house battery to start the engine is large enough.
3- The isolator is a diode, I think due to the voltage drop on pole 3 when the engine is running and receiving current from the alternator.
Old 06-09-2016, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by smac999 View Post
the issues with the ACR's on the laod side of switches. is when the acr is engauged IE engines running or battery charger on, (and they stay enguaged for up to ~30 mins after stoping engines or unplugging)

and you turn one of the switches off, say the engine battery switch. the acr stays on (beause you have over 13v on both sides, and will continue to have 13v on both sides as it's just a closed relay) and will pass power from the house battery through the ACR to the load side of the engine switch, keeping the engine hot, even though the engine switch is off. a big surprise for a mechanic that just turned off the engine switch to do work. or vise vrs. turning off the house switch and all the house loads remained power from the engine bank. one of these days I'll have to make a video. I've had to correct this on many boats. if you have the single dual cct switch it's not an issue as one switch turns both loads off. but with 3 banks you'll have more then one switch.

the only way to prevent this issue would be if bluesea programed the acrs to release every ~30 secs to check the voltage of both sides and then recombined. but this would cause havok while charging.

the acr's don't engage when the voltage is under 9v on either side (battery switch off) but if a switch is turned off when it's already engauged, since the acr is closed both sides of it simply remain at 13v and it won't disengage untill the batteries drain back down to 12.8 or whatever it's set at.

it's really funny to walk onto a boat. turn off the shore power, turn off the house battery switch. and watch the cabin lights turn off 20 mins later when the acr disengages from the voltage set point as the engine battery drains down.
You make a good point that the ACR will continue to supply voltage after the battery switch is turned off.
I do have 3 batteries, 2 switches, 2 alternators and a charger connected to all three batteries.
Thanks
Old 06-09-2016, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by sharkwaters View Post
You make a good point that the ACR will continue to supply voltage after the battery switch is turned off.
I do have 3 batteries, 2 switches, 2 alternators and a charger connected to all three batteries.
Thanks
No it wont. The ACRs are connected to house terminal and the house battery switch will isolate all power leaving it going to the switchboard. As for the engine batteries, they too when both turned off will remove all power. With standard single sense ACRs, they need the 'power' from the engine batteries to power themselves. By being on the load side of the engine switch, when the battery switch is turned off the ACRs drop out instantly. They do not backfeed from the house terminal. Only dual sense ones will do that.

If the isolator is a diode type bypassing one with a jumper will remove the 0.7 voltage drop. It may also be open circuit and the jumper a kind of repair. May have another look at your circuit now that the diagram a is not a mechanical changeover.
Old 06-09-2016, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by isitstuffed View Post
No it wont. The ACRs are connected to house terminal and the house battery switch will isolate all power leaving it going to the switchboard. As for the engine batteries, they too when both turned off will remove all power. With standard single sense ACRs, they need the 'power' from the engine batteries to power themselves. By being on the load side of the engine switch, when the battery switch is turned off the ACRs drop out instantly. They do not backfeed from the house terminal. Only dual sense ones will do that.

If the isolator is a diode type bypassing one with a jumper will remove the 0.7 voltage drop. It may also be open circuit and the jumper a kind of repair. May have another look at your circuit now that the diagram a is not a mechanical changeover.
Thanks for the description. Either way, the diode isolator will go. The house and start must separate with engine off. I will research the ACR. I was not aware that there are 2 types. What do you think of Blueseas?
Old 06-13-2016, 09:29 AM
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Hi guys. I'm not sure if you are still following this thread, but I'm ready to rework the system. Should I use 2 group 27 dual purpose batteries in parallel as the house bank or a single D4? They will be lead acid, unless I buy a new charger that is switchable. Getting a switchable charger would mean buying all new batteries.
Thanks

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