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new garmin update and navionics

Old 01-22-2015, 07:29 PM
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I'd imagine it is more to protect a revenue stream that to reduce liability. Is Garmin liable when Garmin charts are wrong and an accident occurs? If it were only about liability wouldn't a warning about using third party maps be just as effective as the warning that appears before Garmin charts?
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Ktomlinson View Post
I'd imagine it is more to protect a revenue stream that to reduce liability. Is Garmin liable when Garmin charts are wrong and an accident occurs? If it were only about liability wouldn't a warning about using third party maps be just as effective as the warning that appears before Garmin charts?

bingo
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Old 01-23-2015, 01:05 PM
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I just asked the dev folks at Garmin for some clarification.

They said that authorized 3rd party marine charts created with the Garmin Map Product Creator will still be supported, and that this announcement referred specifically to Navionics products.


So with that tidbit of information, here's my speculation.

I believe that Garmin is closing the door on charts created with an old binary map compiler called cgpsmapper. It's been around since at least the early 2000s, and lots of people have used it to make custom maps for Garmin GPS units over the years.

Cgpsmapper was created by a guy who reverse-engineered the Garmin binary map format. Over the years, cgpsmapper and Garmin coexisted in peace, but occasionally Garmin would update their proprietary map format, forcing him to reverse engineer it again. He eventually gave up for good a couple years ago.

My guess is that Navionics uses either cgpsmapper or a derivative to compile their charts into Garmin's map format. And that's the tool that Garmin is removing support for. So third party maps will still be allowed (if approved and after buying the $5,000 Map Product Creator), but all the armchair mappers out there using cgpsmapper are out of luck.

Can any of the Navionics guys weigh in on this? Am I way off base?
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Old 01-23-2015, 01:14 PM
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Plausible, but it seems odd in a few ways. Firstly that Navionics would go through an unofficial route to save $5k. Second would be that Navionics has stated on here that they were in talks with Garmin and amicable about the product up until the beta was released. Then they were suprised by the Garmin announcement.
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Old 01-23-2015, 01:29 PM
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So in the end it's the customers getting screwed. Customers want better maps than G2 vision. Navionics can provide those maps, which in turn, should help sell more garmin units. I think it's called a symbiotic relationship.

But Garmin is taking all of it's toys and going home like a spoiled brat. I'm sure this decision looks great on paper but hurts the company in the end.

Garmin needs to stick to what it does best: Chartplotter, Sonar, Radar, etc.. and let the Navionics do what it does best. There is enough room in the pool for everybody to play.
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by lazyboi1212 View Post
So in the end it's the customers getting screwed. Customers want better maps than G2 vision. Navionics can provide those maps, which in turn, should help sell more garmin units. I think it's called a symbiotic relationship.

But Garmin is taking all of it's toys and going home like a spoiled brat. I'm sure this decision looks great on paper but hurts the company in the end.

Garmin needs to stick to what it does best: Chartplotter, Sonar, Radar, etc.. and let the Navionics do what it does best. There is enough room in the pool for everybody to play.
I agree! Unfortunately I just bought a 840xs about 6-8 months ago.Was on the fence with Garmin or Simrad,but at the time there were some growing pains with Lowrance and Simrad. I got the Navionics Beta chip,really don't have alot of time using it.But I like it better than Garmins so far.Wish I would have waited a bit,but I just bought the Boat and had Ants in my Pants to get it rigged out. Probably won't buy another Garmin product again,unless they really step up their Game.One thing I hate about the Garmin is when you go to Pan a chart ,there is a panel on the right side of the screen that blocks part of the chart! My old Raymarine C-80 doesn't do that.
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:40 PM
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This whole ordeal is leading me away from the new Garmin units. If lowrance had side view on their elite series it'd be on the boat already with a navionics chip, but the 94sv had my attention until the map rumors came out as I have no need for networking or radar or anything else. Now I'm left looking around at what the best option is.
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Old 01-23-2015, 05:46 PM
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somebody should foward this thread to garmin.....
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Old 01-24-2015, 05:38 AM
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Navionics iPad free app, sonar charts free trial period has ended, no way to see what areas are covered without a Beta chip for my Garmin. Anyone know if they are still available (Southwest Florida)?
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Old 01-24-2015, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mrmamiller View Post
Navionics iPad free app, sonar charts free trial period has ended, no way to see what areas are covered without a Beta chip for my Garmin. Anyone know if they are still available (Southwest Florida)?
So pay the 25 or 50 dollars for the chart upgrade on your iPad. The Beta chips were for testing and not 100% operational or for that matter accurate.

Anyone that is going to dump all your Garmin gear. I would be interested in 24xhd radar dome.

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Old 01-24-2015, 06:29 AM
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I never saw a press release from Garmin stating their units will now be capable of running Navionics mapping. Navionics announced they were releasing beta chips for testing their mapping in Garmin units. Anyone who bought Garmin before Navionics announced the beta chip knew what they were getting as far as mapping with Garmin. Anyone who bought after the Navionics announcement were taking a chance on a product still in the testing stage, with no guarantee it would ever come to market. I'm not sure if I should feel sorry for Navionics now that Garmin shot them down or not. Seems to me a company as big as they are would have had a contract with Garmin before starting on the project. I've got a Navionics beta chip, and I like what I see, but I bought Garmin knowing what I was getting, so I have to support Garmin's decision. Who knows, maybe Garmin and Navionic will work out a deal.
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Old 01-25-2015, 07:58 AM
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Does the Navionics Beta Still work with the 4.0 update or not? Have an 840xs ...
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Old 01-25-2015, 08:16 AM
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So far a few people have said it still works.
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Old 01-25-2015, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by stowaway View Post
So far a few people have said it still works.
im going to wait till the dust settles on this to update mine
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Old 01-26-2015, 07:56 AM
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Strike Lines: Happy to weigh in. Thanks for the research.
I can tell you that Garmin referred us to the program we used to build the chart. That's the basics that we used. I don't know the name as I'd have to ask sourcing. The software Garmin has just released was after they saw our charts as we introduced it directly to them at a few shows. This update doesn't have anything to do with eliminating older software. It was a direct reaction to it. My understanding is there are a few third party companies that pays Garmin with an agreement outside of the USA that wil lstill be "allowed" to run their charts on Garmin based on some license agreement. However Garmin did not get back to us on this form and directed us to this programming. Once we made it, poof, here comes blocking software.

From test we have seen, only one third party software seemed to work in the Garmins after the update (company is outside the USA), not sure of what or any others that will work aside from that so far, agreed, they are blocking you from better charts and newer updates.

mrmamiller... go to the navionics website. Click on the web app. This gives full charting for the entire world on navigation and SonarCharts data. That should help you.
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Old 01-26-2015, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by stiletto View Post
Plausible, but it seems odd in a few ways. Firstly that Navionics would go through an unofficial route to save $5k. Second would be that Navionics has stated on here that they were in talks ain and amicable about the product up until the beta was released. Then they were suprised by the Garmin announcement.
Well, it's entirely possible that Garmin didn't approve Navionics for a MPC license, leaving them no other option. Navionics competes directly with Garmin's G2 BlueCharts...

It would be really useful to know exactly what tool Navionics was using to make their beta chart. With that info, and by figuring out how they blocked it, we could get a good idea of how serious Garmin is about locking out all third-party and user-made charts. Or if this is targeted specifically at navionics.
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Old 01-26-2015, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by pmnav View Post
Strike Lines: Happy to weigh in. Thanks for the reI might be earch.
I can tell you that Garmin referred us to the program we used to build the chart. That's the basics that we used. I don't know the name as I'd have to ask sourcing.
Could you find out the name of the software? PM me if you need to. There is a robust community of end-users making custom maps on Garmin hardware, and depending on what utility you were using before, you might have some strategic options going forward.
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Old 01-27-2015, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by StrikeLines View Post
Could you find out the name of the software? PM me if you need to. There is a robust community of end-users making custom maps on Garmin hardware, and depending on what utility you were using before, you might have some strategic options going forward.
Strike,

Navionics has used generic 3rd party software which has been improved to align Navionics symbols with Garmin symbols. We do not give out additional details about the tools used internally.

Regarding the MPC, your assumptions were correct. Navionics has asked for and repeatedly been denied access to the Garmin agreement for some time. Garmin does allow other cartography manufacturers access to the MPC. Instead of granting permission, Garmin has chosen a different path by releasing the software update blocking the use of Navionics content.

Rather than allow users access to a variety of cartography available to most other marine electronics manufacturers they have chosen to limit you. Now, older units without limitations are more valuable to the installed base than newer units that have been downgraded, blocking the use of alternative content. Garmin makers a good mapping product,, and Navionics believes we also make a good product that is continuously updated. The comments on this thread mimic the sentiment we hear day in and day out. Garmin also now demands that Navionics publish the fct that a software update is available that blocks the use of Navionics SonarCharts cards. We will do so as asked.

If you are no longer able to use Navionics SonarCharts cards with your newer Garmin unit it is unfortunate but you will still be able to contribute to SonarCharts by uploading your Garmin logs and continue to get chart updates through your Navionics mobile app.

We would also encourage you to voice your opinions to Garmin directly. http://www.garmin.com/us/support/

Thanks,
Shaun
Navionics Product Manager
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Old 01-27-2015, 03:09 PM
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Thank you for the detailed reply. This answers all of my questions perfectly.

It's an interesting direction that Garmin has chosen, but it makes sense in the big picture.

All of the major manufacturers must realize that their days are numbered in the hardware business. Inexpensive tablet computers running sonar software will soon end the day of the $3,000 MFD. So now Garmin and, even moreso Lowrance, are scrambling to improve their chart offerings. Lowrance though Insight Genesis. And Garmin with contract multibeam survey, reportedly.

I really like the Navionics iPad app. What you guys really need is for some company to produce a daylight-readable, waterproof, 13-inch tablet for about $400. Then tablet Navionics would be my chartplotter,. My MFD would go back to being a bottom machine. And that would be that.
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Old 01-27-2015, 05:22 PM
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I'm sorry if it's a basic question and one that has been discussed.
Looks like Garmin will not allow sonar charts to be displayed right?
What about regular Navionics Platinum+ which I have on a SD card? I want to upgrade from Lowrance to Garmins new unit and want to make sure my charts will work. If I can't use Navionics I will go with NSS evo2
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