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Higher sonar watts Questions???

Old 07-27-2005, 05:53 PM
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Default Higher sonar watts Questions???

I have never used a color sounder for cost reaons and now will be buying a comlete SeaTalk with the DMS300 that has a 600/1000 watt rating.

My question? They offer transducers that have 2000 watt rating right well do they make a booster for the DMS300 to get it to a higher wattage? or do you put 2 in line together? or is the 2000 watt rated transducer over rated and nothing can be matched to it?

In English please I am electronically challanged LOL :O

BAZ...
Old 07-27-2005, 06:19 PM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

No you cannot boost the output. The output is determined by the sounder (DSM300). Think of the transducer as a speaker connected to an amplifier. You want to have a speaker that has a high enough power rating so the amp doesn't blow it. Which screen did you buy ?
Old 07-27-2005, 06:59 PM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Elusive - 7/27/2005 4:19 PM

No you cannot boost the output. The output is determined by the sounder (DSM300). Think of the transducer as a speaker connected to an amplifier. You want to have a speaker that has a high enough power rating so the amp doesn't blow it. Which screen did you buy ?
I am doing 2 the E120 and the E80 as a backup and a stand alone.

Why do they advertise a 2000 watt transducer if they do not have a 2000 watt output for their systems. What companies may have a 2000 watt unit? Are the commercial boats running the E series or some special 2000 watt or larger units?

BAZ....
Old 07-27-2005, 08:14 PM
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Default RE: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Most of the transducer for Raymarine and many other major manufacturers are made by AIRMAR www.Airmar.com The Airmar R99/R199 will handle 2000watts. We have all Raymarine equipment for the most part. I believe Furuno makes sounder that will take put out 3000 watts. In general, the greater the wattage the greater the depth. The R99 we are using is good for 2000 Watts and over 5000'...we are seldom in water greater than 700', 1000 watts in more than enough. We have the Raymarine DSM300 also...maybe someday the will come out with a 2000 Watt unit...we'll then be all set!
Old 07-27-2005, 09:41 PM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Steve raymarine has not released that sounder to the consumer public yet it still in testing ...

John
Old 07-27-2005, 09:43 PM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Thanks for explaining that. I was blown away that the mounting block was on the outside as large as it was!!

BAZ...
Old 07-28-2005, 06:09 AM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Don't sweat the 2000 watts versus 1000 watts output if you don't need to see bottom in more than 1500 or 2000 feet. All sounders will automatically step down the power as the depth goes down. Unlike the Raymarine and Furuno sounders, my Simrad actually tells you what the output power setting is and allows you to change it directly. It may surprise you to learn that in water of less than 50 feet or so, my unit is unly using 10 watts of its 1000 watt output power. In 200-300 feet, it goes up to 100W. I have never used it in water deeper than 500 feet so far, but I have not seen it go to 1000W yet. I think it would not use 1000 W until it got over 800-1000 feet. If I manually set it to 1000W while in say 100 feet of water, the picture quality gets worse.

As others have noted, what really matters is the quality of the elements in the transducer and their ability to "hear" the echoes with precision. That's why you want a big transducer such as the B260 if you want a quality picture, not because they can handle more power.
Old 07-28-2005, 06:45 AM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Steve - a transducer that has a higher input wattage rating also (typically) has higher sensititivity. Meaning that for every volt into the transducer it will produce more sound energy into the water (more dBs). Also keep in mind that sound pressure is not measured on a linear scale so an increase of 3dB is double the acoustic energy.
Old 07-28-2005, 12:01 PM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Nomans, if your unit is using only 10 watts does it mean that the whole machine is using 10 watts? I just have been wondering that if it uses 1000 watts does it mean that it really needs that much power? If I'm right it means about 83A in 12 volts? How far am I from fact? Please don't flare up with my stupid questions...
Old 07-28-2005, 04:40 PM
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Default RE: Higher sonar watts Questions???

So I would be good to go with a R-99 which is 2000 watt capable or do you reccomend the 260 with a faring block and would I get better results with the more expensive unit if the DSM300 unit is rated for 1Kw or am I wasting my $$$'s and stick to the 260?

BAZ...
Old 07-28-2005, 06:25 PM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Steve stick with the 260 that R99 is to large for your size boat.....
It's way over kill for your application...

John
Old 07-28-2005, 06:37 PM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Tightline Rod's - 7/28/2005 4:25 PM

Steve stick with the 260 that R99 is to large for your size boat.....
It's way over kill for your application...

John

Thanks John for clearing that up. I hate to be under powered when it could be done right from the start!!


BAZ...
Old 07-28-2005, 07:04 PM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

FinFisher - 7/28/2005 1:01 PM

Nomans, if your unit is using only 10 watts does it mean that the whole machine is using 10 watts? I just have been wondering that if it uses 1000 watts does it mean that it really needs that much power? If I'm right it means about 83A in 12 volts? How far am I from fact? Please don't flare up with my stupid questions...
NO, It would if the ducer used the 12VDC directly, but it gets it's power from the BBF1 or DSM-300. Assume it is 200VDC, then 5A makes 1000w, most likely it is even higher voltage. Remember you can transmit ALOT of POWER over small cables, but you need bigger cables for amperage.

An Aircraft Carrier uses Shore Power cables roughly the same as a Submarine. The sub gets 400A @ 440VAC thru the cables. The Carrier gets 4160VAC and 350Amps thru the almost identical cable. MUCH more power, but less amperage.
Old 07-29-2005, 06:35 AM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

The sounder sends an AC pulse (not DC). And the more likely equation to use in this case is W = V(squared) / R where W is your rms power, V is your rms volts from the sounder and R is the parallel resistance of the transducer at the resonant frequency.
Old 07-29-2005, 07:14 AM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

I read an article where a factory rep ( I think from Airmar) talked about transducer power requirements. As best as I can recall he said that in a transducer there is a direct performance relationship between power and the transducers emitter diameter (crystal?). In the example he gave, if you start with a 1 inch dia emitter and 1000 watts of power then increase the diameter of the emitter to 2 inches you would only need 250 watts of power to give the same performance. If I understand what I read correctly I’m wondering what the issues are in simply increasing the size of the emitter element to allow for lower power requirements?
Old 07-29-2005, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Urban; That's true in an acoustically quiet setting. But in a boat, with props turning and waves smashing, there is a lot of noise in these ultrasonic frequencies. For this, high power really helps. Think signal to noise ratio. To increase signal: increase transmitter power and/or decrease beamwidth of transducer (assuming you are aimed at the target).
Old 07-29-2005, 09:50 AM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Diver dave, so in order to decrease the beam width you need a larger acoustic aperture which means a larger ceramic (or an array). This increases the directivity index and, therefore, the power handling capability of the transducer.

Urban renewal, hmmm,... I think you are on the right track but do not get caught up in the size of the ceramic because not all piezo materials behave the same. Rather you should compare the transmit sensitivities (TVR). From there you can compute source levels at various power levels using the equation SL = TVR + 20 x logV where SL is the source level in dB, TVR is the transmit sensitivity of the transducer in dB relative to 1 micro Pascal per volt at 1m, and V is the rms voltage into the transducer. You can solve for Vrms by taking the square root of the product of rms watts from the sounder and the transducer impedance (Wrms x R)
Old 07-29-2005, 01:26 PM
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Default Re: Higher sonar watts Questions???

Somethin-Fishey - 7/29/2005 3:04 AM

NO, It would if the ducer used the 12VDC directly, but it gets it's power from the BBF1 or DSM-300. Assume it is 200VDC, then 5A makes 1000w, most likely it is even higher voltage. Remember you can transmit ALOT of POWER over small cables, but you need bigger cables for amperage.

An Aircraft Carrier uses Shore Power cables roughly the same as a Submarine. The sub gets 400A @ 440VAC thru the cables. The Carrier gets 4160VAC and 350Amps thru the almost identical cable. MUCH more power, but less amperage.
Thanks! That makes sense.
Old 08-05-2005, 03:10 PM
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Default RE: Higher sonar watts Questions???

power rating for sounders and transducers have less to do with performance than other factors. The 2 kW R99 airmar ducer is offered because in addition to handling more power (without wasting it as heat, or to use the tech term "cavitate") it has increased sensitivity and a narrower beam angle, making it suitable for deeper water(+1000') apps. for most rec fisherman, the B260 works quite well with the DSM300' and unless you intend to deep drop, it's all you'll ever need.

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