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Need Advice from the Voltage Gurus!

Old 07-29-2013, 01:52 PM
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Question Need Advice from the Voltage Gurus!

Boat is being delivered next week. It is a 34 Fountain with twin 300 verados and the following electronics:

2- Simrad NSO Processors
2- Argonaut Computers Tflex G7 Series 17” Monitors
BSM-2 Chirp Sounder Module
M265 Shoot through Transducer
Simrad Open Array Radar (4’ 6KW)
2- Icom M400 Black Box Units
2- VHF Antennae (Digital)
Audio Pipe Marine Stereo
Auxillary Input port under helm seat
3- Audiopipe Marine Stereo Amplifiers (2 for speakers, 1 for subs)
4- Audiopipe 6” Speakers
2- Audiopipe 8” Speakers
2- Audiopipe Tweeters
2- Audiopipe 10” Subwoofers
300’ Anchor rode and 10’ chain
Flo-LED 36’ boat undergunnel Light Kit
Flo-LED Spektrum Multi-Color Under water Lights
3000 Watt Inverter (GFCI Outlet port under helm seat cushion)



There was a miscommunication and three batteries were installed (1 per verado, 1 for the house) instead of the requested (1 per engine, 2 for the house). Not a big deal, they ask how I would like them to proceed. They say there are space concerns in regards to adding a fourth battery in the console (picture provided below).

Would I be able to get by with 1 high end deep cycle house battery? Or do I need to have two house batteries to operate the electronics?

Thanks for the advice guys,
Guiillermo

Here is the console set up currently with three batteries and no real real estate left:
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:27 PM
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Just keep the engines running and you'll be fine. Bet you can kill the single house battery in 30 minutes with the engines off.
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:28 PM
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pc2150 Odyssey for house....add a true voltage monitor on the dash (like from newmar) and watch what you do...
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Old 07-29-2013, 03:02 PM
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Have them build you a removable Stand above the lower Batts for 2 more deeps...It looks like there is room..It's only money. Right?
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Old 07-29-2013, 03:21 PM
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Not even close! That 3000 watt inverter alone could wipe out the house battery in minutes if you have something plugged in drawing any kind of amperage. At the very minimum I'd want the essential house nav electronics on it's own bank (group 34 AGM, Oddesey or equilvalent) , the ample sounding stereo system on it's own (another 34) and a separate bank for the inverter (2-34's?). In a pinch you could pair the stereo and inverter banks together but you'll have to keep that in mind always. Sounds like a lot of VSR's and a high current charger as well if the inverter isn't also a charger when plugged into AC at the dock.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:00 PM
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It looks like you already have two VSRs, so either engine should charge the house bank anytime the engines are running. I know folks will croak on here, but I would just bridge the port motors battery with the house bank. Just never do that with the Stb one... That way in a pinch, assuming you kill the house and the port motor battery, you crank the stb motor, then let it run for 5 or 6 minutes at 2000 rpm, then crank the other motor. Not ideal, because I do not like stressing the alternator like that, but if it happens it happens. I would also leave the breaker to the inverter OFF unless you needed it. Also, like bills106 said, have a good charger connected to each battery individually. I also second the voltage monitor! I would even possibly add a Amp gauge if I was planning on doing any overnight trips or the like. The golden rule is always keep at least one battery disconnected from EVERYTHING else, and call that the primary crank battery! I use group 31 AMGs from Sams, they are big and heavy, but they can crank anything.
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Old 07-29-2013, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bills106 View Post
Not even close! That 3000 watt inverter alone could wipe out the house battery in minutes if you have something plugged in drawing any kind of amperage. At the very minimum I'd want the essential house nav electronics on it's own bank (group 34 AGM, Oddesey or equilvalent) , the ample sounding stereo system on it's own (another 34) and a separate bank for the inverter (2-34's?). In a pinch you could pair the stereo and inverter banks together but you'll have to keep that in mind always. Sounds like a lot of VSR's and a high current charger as well if the inverter isn't also a charger when plugged into AC at the dock.
agreed -I missed the inverter....carry a Honda 2000 gen with you....
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:53 PM
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Guys,

Thank you for all the responses.

I didn't need this size inverter nor will use anything that powerful. It'll be used to power the two 17" Screens, and power phones and ipad's, and a mobile hotspot. Occasionally will power a blender .

I just got a great deal on it so went with the unit but do not intend to power anything crazy!


First option will be to add a second battery to the house bank and add a digital voltmeter.

2nd option would be keeping a singlehouse battery with a quality digital voltmeter. I will check out my power consumption as I use the boat and if need be (as probably will) will add another battery bank on the boat.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:00 PM
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There is a pocket in the helm station that currently has a tackle center built in that i will not be using due to the inconvenience I am going to get pictures of it tomorrow from the factory. Due to the advice, I am going to add extra batteries (2) to the house battery in this location.

Can I just ad them in parallel and will they recharge by being hooked up in parallel or will they need to be set up a special way to get a charge from the battery charger and engines?

Sorry for the picture of the bilge below, I do not know how to remove it!
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Last edited by gaa07; 07-29-2013 at 06:37 PM. Reason: change of plans :)
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by gaa07 View Post
Guys,

Thank you for all the responses.

I didn't need this size inverter nor will use anything that powerful. It'll be used to power the two 17" Screens, and power phones and ipad's, and a mobile hotspot. Occasionally will power a blender .

I just got a great deal on it so went with the unit but do not intend to power anything crazy!


First option will be to add a second battery to the house bank and add a digital voltmeter.

2nd option would be keeping a singlehouse battery with a quality digital voltmeter. I will check out my power consumption as I use the boat and if need be (as probably will) will add another battery bank on the boat.
All the above apart from the blender should run 12v. It is "expensive" in power loss to use an inverter to first convert from 12v to 110v - and then back again to 12v or 5v. You will loose 30-50% through the inverter and AC->DC converters to your iPad/Phones/Hotspot. I don't know about your 17" screens - if they can run on "pure" 12v - but if they can - much better. But your 3 stereo amplifiers will drain your batteries quite fast as well.

Lifeline has a 125 Ah G31 AGM battery that is only slightly higher than most other G31 batteries. That would give you most Amp/lbs vs size.

And the "current" best power monitor I have found is Maretron DSM150/DSM250 display - with DCM100 voltage monitor. That will give you quite exact number of hours you have left. There is a DSM250 on eBay currently at $260 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Maretron-DSM...87cf0f&vxp=mtr) vs normal price of around $800. Only problem is at full brightness it eats 0.6 amps.
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Old 07-30-2013, 07:25 PM
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buying a maritron screen just to run the battery monitor is kinda stupid. plus I don't like that one anyways. get a xantrax linklite or linkpro.
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:27 AM
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Who is installing this equipment?, Why are they not doing a needs assessment of your electrical system? You really should not have to come to a forum to design this. A pro installer would do it all the right way from the ground up.
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:22 AM
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A marine professional would do the installation.

I ask so as to learn, and be prepared, when being given options by my installer. I do not like to be the person that just says, I need more power, do your thing. I like to make informed and educated choices and understand what is going on. Truth is, I am an eternal student, I love to learn, especially when it comes to boats and the ocean, my passions.

I wish I had more time to get hands on experience, but life does not give me that pleasure at the moment, so I come to THT. I learn a lot here. THT allows me to be better prepared in regards to boating and fishing in times when life does not allow me the opportunity to learn through first hand experience (something I am glad of as those can be expensive!!!)

I appreciate everyone's help and input, I have learned a great deal on the subject and feel better prepared to make the best decision.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by gaa07 View Post
A marine professional would do the installation.

I ask so as to learn, and be prepared, when being given options by my installer. I do not like to be the person that just says, I need more power, do your thing. I like to make informed and educated choices and understand what is going on. Truth is, I am an eternal student, I love to learn, especially when it comes to boats and the ocean, my passions.

I wish I had more time to get hands on experience, but life does not give me that pleasure at the moment, so I come to THT. I learn a lot here. THT allows me to be better prepared in regards to boating and fishing in times when life does not allow me the opportunity to learn through first hand experience (something I am glad of as those can be expensive!!!)

I appreciate everyone's help and input, I have learned a great deal on the subject and feel better prepared to make the best decision.

That's not what I meant, you have received excellent advice here, but the "marine professional "that would install all this equipment with the meager battery set up you have in post 1 is not a professional. He's a hack.
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:18 AM
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Glen,

I see what you are saying. That is the factories standard set up. They brought the power issue to my attention specifically noting that I may want more power (my option). That is when I asked them for a few days to make a decision if I was going to ask them to take care of it, leave it, or have it done down here.

I then came on here to get as much information as possible to make the most informed decision. I highly customized my boat per my needs, I should have been more prepared in how the vessel was going to be powered. Not the factories fault, my fault. Luckily, they brought it to my attention, and luckily we are both working on rectifying a possible future power shortage.

I do now feel better prepared on making the decision on how to address the power needs of my vessel, and the factory will be doing all the work! This makes me happy as they are most familiar with the systems.

I have learned so much, especially from you Glen, thank you for pointing out the issues with the install and what I need to take care of!!!\
\
thanks guys,
Guillermo
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by gaa07 View Post
Glen,

I see what you are saying. That is the factories standard set up. They brought the power issue to my attention specifically noting that I may want more power (my option). That is when I asked them for a few days to make a decision if I was going to ask them to take care of it, leave it, or have it done down here.

I then came on here to get as much information as possible to make the most informed decision. I highly customized my boat per my needs, I should have been more prepared in how the vessel was going to be powered. Not the factories fault, my fault. Luckily, they brought it to my attention, and luckily we are both working on rectifying a possible future power shortage.

I do now feel better prepared on making the decision on how to address the power needs of my vessel, and the factory will be doing all the work! This makes me happy as they are most familiar with the systems.

I have learned so much, especially from you Glen, thank you for pointing out the issues with the install and what I need to take care of!!!\
\
thanks guys,
Guillermo
Good luck, I have very little faith in boatbuilders doing electronics and batt systems.....
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:58 PM
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Put in the 3 group 31's (not sure why smaller group 34's were suggested). Heavy cables to the extra two in the tackle station in parallel is fine. Have a switch on the inverter--turn it on only if you have to use the 120 volts. I would consider a smaller separate small inverter for the monitors if possible. Plus I always use 12 volt chargers on the i phone/pad.

I use a Link 10 on my house system--gives voltage, amps in amps out, and used. I got it for $100, but if you look around you probably can find one for about $140. Does not have to be right in the usual gauge cluster--can be on the side.
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:25 PM
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Yea, I am starting to believe I over did it with the size of the inverter.......


Here is a link to the screens:

http://www.argonautcomputer.com/pdfs/Argonaut_G7.pdf


Aside from the two screens, I will from time to time be charging, iPads, and powering a small wifi hotspot and apple airport express.

I may also, not frequently, use a blender on the boat to make drinks.


What size inverter would you consider to be more appropriate?

Thanks,
Guillermo
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:40 PM
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Blender 300 to 500 watts, Those beautiful computer screens 25 to 35 watts each max, the wall warts--a few watts. Probably 800 watts would be enough. But check out the draw--there is a cheap device called a "kill 0 watt" meter which measures appliance draw in watts and amps, as well as voltage and frequency of mains power. I would be using 12 volts for the charging--and most hot spots charge from a 12 volt USB type of charger--is the apple Airport express going to be used--most hot spots will support several computers--on a 34 foot boat?
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Old 08-01-2013, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by thataway View Post
Blender 300 to 500 watts, Those beautiful computer screens 25 to 35 watts each max, the wall warts--a few watts. Probably 800 watts would be enough. But check out the draw--there is a cheap device called a "kill 0 watt" meter which measures appliance draw in watts and amps, as well as voltage and frequency of mains power. I would be using 12 volts for the charging--and most hot spots charge from a 12 volt USB type of charger--is the apple Airport express going to be used--most hot spots will support several computers--on a 34 foot boat?
The hotspot, once charged, can be unplugged as it has a battery.. Won't be used too often, it is a tool I have for work anyways so may find good use out on the boat to allow easy Internet access to an iPad.

The airport express on the other hand I use frequently, have multiple units in our home and travel audio equipment. I used it on my previous boat fed from a 400 watt inverter. I do not use it for Internet, I use it for audio streaming only. It allows me to keep my iPhone (in life proof case) on me while in the water at the sandbar away from the boat and still be able to control the audio with amazing quality and range. The range being wifi is much better then anything I have been able to get with Bluetooth and such.

Thank you for the advice on the kill 0 watt unit, I would be interested in checking up my usage and would be interested in swapping out my inverter unit to help keep my batteries fresh.

Hypo Question linked to the above paragraph: if I draw 800 watts continuously, would a 3,000 watt inverter draw more from the batteries than a 1500 watt inverter? Or do they pull only according to the draw necessary.

Thank you sir
Guillermo
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