Notices

P66 (8pin) on GSD24

Old 03-04-2013, 12:58 AM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CYPRUS
Posts: 194
Default P66 (8pin) on GSD24

I connected the P66 8pin model on a P66 (the chart plotter is the 5212) and all are running the latest version of firmware.

The P66 is a 600Watt Transducer and in the Transducer Diagnostics screen it does not display the model of the transducer and also states it as a 500Watt.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/attachme...13_1457_00.jpg

Why is this happening and how to change it so the GSD will recognize the P66 and use it as a 600Watt transducer?

Is there any chance that the wiring inside the GSD24 is not the correct for the XID to worrk?
Here is the manual of GSD24
http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/GS...Install_EN.pdf

If yes which is the suitable wiring for the P66 8 pin?
koutroul is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:33 AM
  #2  
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 79
Default

As far as I know, the P66 doesn't have an XID wire, so changing the power setting has to be done manually.
I should also note that on Airmar's own website (http://www.airmartechnology.com/mari...arch.asp?q=P66), the Garmin P66 is actually labled as 500W, with a 12 degree beamwidth on 200kHz instead of 11, however all of the rest of the literature points towards it being exactly the same as all the rest.

To set the power to a higher level, push Home->Configuration->My Boat->
Then hold your finger in the bottom left hand corner untill the "Transducer settings"(or something similar, I dont have one here with me!) pops up.
You will then be able to set output power and impedence. (Values here: http://www.airmartechnology.com/uplo...ges/cat_55.pdf)

On a similar note - Has anyone "Overclocked" their transducers using this method? I mean, set a P66 to deliver 650 or 700W output power?
Bay Marine Electronics is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 06:25 AM
  #3  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 76
Default

Setting any transducer above its rated value will probably do one of two things. Either overheat the transducer and cause a burnout failure, or actually physically break the ceramic that is used to drive the transducer and cause catastrophic failure. Also driving above the rated power will more than likely void any warranty.

That being said be careful and follow the manufacturers suggested settings.
Sonoboy is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 06:38 AM
  #4  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 7,887
Default

There is an XID version of the P66 and it is labeled as such. Here's one I installed.


Name:  1011.jpg
Views: 125
Size:  46.5 KB


Name:  3.jpg
Views: 107
Size:  51.7 KB
bluewaterpirate is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 10:24 AM
  #5  
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 79
Default

Originally Posted by Sonoboy View Post
Setting any transducer above its rated value will probably do one of two things. Either overheat the transducer and cause a burnout failure, or actually physically break the ceramic that is used to drive the transducer and cause catastrophic failure. Also driving above the rated power will more than likely void any warranty.

That being said be careful and follow the manufacturers suggested settings.
I'm pretty sure thats exactly what computer chip manufacturers have been saying for the last 20 years, however it hasn't stopped enthusiasts from pushing their equipment to get the best from it.

If it is a heat issue, then those of us in colder waters should be able to overpower their transducers without too much risk, perhaps 10-20 percent? If the Ceramic will shatter then thats a completely different story of course!

I also notice on the Airmar site that the rating is given at 2% duty, If we slowed down the ping rate then the duty would also fall.

Good to see there are P66s with Xid, thats an interesting looking mount too - is is aftermarket?
Bay Marine Electronics is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 10:43 AM
  #6  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location:
Posts: 7,887
Default

Yes ...... Sternmate makes it. Nice clean screwless install into the transom.

Name:  1.jpg
Views: 172
Size:  86.9 KB


Name:  4-1.jpg
Views: 164
Size:  52.5 KB

Last edited by bluewaterpirate; 03-04-2013 at 10:58 AM.
bluewaterpirate is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 12:51 PM
  #7  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
THT sponsor
Marine Advertiser
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 21,659
Default

The Airmar P66's that is used for the Garmin sounders and GSD-24 BB is a 600 watt 11 degree unit.
Those part numbers are : P66-DST-6G, P66-DT-6G and P66-8G

It is interesting that Garmin lists them as 500 watt...but they are indeed a 600 watt unit.
semperfifishing is offline  
Old 03-04-2013, 03:07 PM
  #8  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CYPRUS
Posts: 194
Default

In the Garmin transducer selection guide the 8 pin P66 I have (010-10192-21) is listed as a 600Watt.

http://www8.garmin.com/transducers/d...tion-Guide.pdf

I am not sure if I should change something in the wiring inside the GSD 24 to make it work.

http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/GS...Install_EN.pdf
koutroul is offline  
Old 03-05-2013, 12:29 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,418
Default

Originally Posted by koutroul View Post
I connected the P66 8pin model on a P66 (the chart plotter is the 5212) and all are running the latest version of firmware.

The P66 is a 600Watt Transducer and in the Transducer Diagnostics screen it does not display the model of the transducer and also states it as a 500Watt.

http://www.thehulltruth.com/attachme...13_1457_00.jpg

Why is this happening and how to change it so the GSD will recognize the P66 and use it as a 600Watt transducer?
First, this was already explained in the very thread you plucked that image from http://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-e...-vs-sonar.html

Second, I thought you said that you "got it" http://www.thehulltruth.com/5423232-post11.html when you were informed in that other thread that the root of your troubles is that you are using the wrong transducer in the first place, and that the difference between 500W and 600W is too trivial to worry about (especially in this case)?


Is there any chance that the wiring inside the GSD24 is not the correct for the XID to worrk?
Here is the manual of GSD24
http://static.garmincdn.com/pumac/GS...Install_EN.pdf

If yes which is the suitable wiring for the P66 8 pin?
Stop trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole, and do what you already know you need to do to fix your problem. Again, from that same thread:

Originally Posted by koutroul View Post
I can proceed now with a TM or M 260 and in the future I can go CHIRP.


Itteldoo is offline  
Old 03-05-2013, 12:45 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,418
Default

Originally Posted by Bay Marine Electronics View Post
Originally Posted by Sonoboy View Post
Setting any transducer above its rated value will probably do one of two things. Either overheat the transducer and cause a burnout failure, or actually physically break the ceramic that is used to drive the transducer and cause catastrophic failure. Also driving above the rated power will more than likely void any warranty.

That being said be careful and follow the manufacturers suggested settings.
I'm pretty sure thats exactly what computer chip manufacturers have been saying for the last 20 years, however it hasn't stopped enthusiasts from pushing their equipment to get the best from it.
And in both cases, it is most often a fool's errand.

More importantly, SONAR transducers are NOT like CPU chips, which are individually tested and sorted (a.k.a. "binned") before their ratings are stamped on the case. Nor are they sometimes deliberately UNDERrated to meet marketing needs (which has been common practice with CPUs and memory chips going back to at least the 80386 era).

The correct analogy to a SONAR transducer is a loudspeaker system. And just like a loudspeaker system, the harder you push them, the WORSE they perform. Distortion, frequency-response abberations, and other nonlinearities increase exponentially as you approach (or exceed) their design limits. And as a direct result of this, "koutroul" is near-certainly BETTER off for the fact that his P66 is apparently operating at 500 watts instead of 600 watts -- or rather, he would be, if the P66 were even close to the correct transducer for his application, which it isn't.



Itteldoo is offline  
Old 03-05-2013, 01:34 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: CYPRUS
Posts: 194
Default

What is the problem to ask how to fully utilize the transducer that i paid for? I don't have enough money to buy now a better one and I am trying to make the most of that one. When I have the money I will proceed and buy better one but until then I am free to ask how to utilize the one I bought as a 600Watt.



Anyway I would like to thank everybody for the support and I believe also other Garmin GSD 24/P66 owners will come across the same question.

Originally Posted by Itteldoo View Post
First, this was already explained in the very thread you plucked that image from http://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-e...-vs-sonar.html

Second, I thought you said that you "got it" http://www.thehulltruth.com/5423232-post11.html when you were informed in that other thread that the root of your troubles is that you are using the wrong transducer in the first place, and that the difference between 500W and 600W is too trivial to worry about (especially in this case)?




Stop trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole, and do what you already know you need to do to fix your problem. Again, from that same thread:




koutroul is offline  
Old 03-06-2013, 09:01 PM
  #12  
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 79
Default

Originally Posted by Itteldoo View Post

The correct analogy to a SONAR transducer is a loudspeaker system. And just like a loudspeaker system, the harder you push them, the WORSE they perform. Distortion, frequency-response abberations, and other nonlinearities increase exponentially as you approach (or exceed) their design limits.


Awesome, this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for - and it does make sense to me to think of it as a speaker system rather than a computer chip!

I'm glad someone has gone out and done the work before wasting my time!
What transducer did you use for your testing? What setup did you use? Was it for for a Manufacturer?
Bay Marine Electronics is offline  
Old 03-08-2013, 07:58 AM
  #13  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 76
Default

Originally Posted by Itteldoo View Post

The correct analogy to a SONAR transducer is a loudspeaker system. And just like a loudspeaker system, the harder you push them, the WORSE they perform. Distortion, frequency-response abberations, and other nonlinearities increase exponentially as you approach (or exceed) their design limits. And as a direct result of this, "koutroul" is near-certainly BETTER off for the fact that his P66 is apparently operating at 500 watts instead of 600 watts -- or rather, he would be, if the P66 were even close to the correct transducer for his application, which it isn't.




Let me chime in here, comparing a sonar transducer to a loud speaker is correct, they share very close attributes but they are not completely analogous. Different construction methods, different intended outputs, etc. Same acoustic and some design principles do apply though.

If the P66 or any other transducer is rated to certain drive level it will have its best performance at that rating. There is no distortion in the waveform by driving the transducer at 500W vs. 600W if it is rated at 600W. It will not be as stressful on the transducer yes, but it will not effect the actual waveform the transducer puts out other than amplitude. If there was such a problem with distortion at the "rated powers" why would anyone ever rate there stuff there knowing that the performance is worse there?

If you drive significantly above the rated performance than yes the performance will be worse but not 500W vs. 600W. The Navy drives the same PZT materials (not the same element) that are in the P66 to levels sometimes 4x what the P66 sees without any problem. Honestly the performance difference you will see driving at 500W or 600W will be negligible unless you are approaching that maximum depth the P66 can perform at.

Also when a product is "engineered" properly there is always a factor of safety built in so the rated power is usually much lower than what the unit could actually physically handle. For something like the P66 could probably easily handle 1kW without distorting or failing mechanically. Heat generation might be an issue but physically the PZT could handle it no sweat.
Sonoboy is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread