Notices
Marine Electronics Forum

Considering Garmin Autopilot

Old 02-15-2012, 10:49 AM
  #21  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member Admiral's Club Member
THT sponsor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Brookhaven, LI, NY
Posts: 15,755
Default

Originally Posted by llord View Post
Birdman.. Most owners with inboards still want to see their rudder position..Yes,personally I think its dumb. If you need to know your rudder direction you have no business behind the helm IMO. But most people do like to see their rudder posion,even on boats like yours
Agreed. But that has nothing to do with the operation of the AP!! And for that reason I have a VDO rudder reference gauge installed on my boat. It is a stand alone unit (not connected to the SAP or anything else) which simply displays the direction the rudders are in. LOVE having that\, but again it has nothing to do with the AP.

And I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I'd bet most boats that are this large, already have built in Rudder ref gauges, like I installed.


Last edited by Birdman; 02-15-2012 at 11:03 AM.
Birdman is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 11:04 AM
  #22  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,305
Default

Originally Posted by Birdman View Post
Agreed. But that has nothing to do with the operation of the AP!! And for that reason I have a VDO rudder reference gauge installed on my boat. It is a stand alone unit (not connected to the SAP or anything else) which simply displays the direction the rudders are in. LOVE having that\, but again it has nothing to do with the AP.

And I'm going to go out on a limb and say, I'd bet most boats that are this large, already have built in Rudder ref gauges, like I installed.
Garmin has developed a "recreational use" view by boaters. While Furuno and Simrad APs have acquired a "commercial use" view. Im not saying either is true...just pointing out what most perceive....Having said that,Garmin kind of marketed their self this way....Which is fine,theres a ton more 23 CC runnin around then 57 Carolina boats...more money for them.
As far as the RF indicator,yes,most have it. I dont understand it but people love seein them rudders pointin straight when they backer down in the slip
llord is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 11:14 AM
  #23  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Windsor, Ontario, Canada in the summer and Cape Coral, Florida in the Winter
Posts: 366
Default

Originally Posted by Birdman View Post

And there you go, real life BIG boat performance. Still waiting for my invite to go for a ride in that thing!!

Hey Birdman, we are leaving early June for Georgian bay and the Trent/severn to Kingston and then will cruise the 1000 island area, back in Windsor approximately end of July. Want to join us for a couple of months or anywhere's along the way? ;?


Now that is a tease!!
Just something I read this morning. don't know exactly what, but they are supposed to come out next week with something about their autopilot.

This from the Panbo site:
Note in the Interphase press release that company founder Charles Hicks and his team will continue to work on sonar from their base in California, only now with Garmin helping with engineering and taking care of non-engineering business. It's the same model Garmin used when it acquired autopilot innovator Nautimatic, and that sure worked out well (as we'll get more evidence of later this week).

And, yes, I do have a Rudder Indicator on my boat and it has nothing to do with the TR-1. The guage just lets me know what the TR-1 is doing...
RaySea Lady is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 11:35 AM
  #24  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: florida
Posts: 161
Default

Originally Posted by llord View Post
Take into consideration that you will need Tach info for the Garmin as well.Sometimes a tooth counter or an added post on the alternator is required. Im just making sure you know you need an analog Tach signal before you buy the unit
No thats not true! If you have a planning hule you CAN use the tach info so the GHP 10 knows the point your boats planning. you can also use the gps info via nmea 0183/2000.
But you don't need to. you can tel the pilot that you have a displacment hull and it wont ask for any speed/rpm info
rauber is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 11:39 AM
  #25  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: florida
Posts: 161
Default

Originally Posted by narrab View Post
Rudder feedback is a must on a inboard boat
you can always use an additional rudder feedback unit and display.
Garmin supplys alot of oems with the ghp10 unit. fairline, bavaria, regal etc. those have inboards too and it works great!
if you want to have a autopilot with a rudder feedback and a different pump but the garmin one, just go for the ghp12! its a great autopilot and it can drive almost any pump out there. you can also hook up the shadow drive and you will have all the benifits from the ghp10......
rauber is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 12:10 PM
  #26  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 22
Default

Originally Posted by llord View Post
Take into consideration that you will need Tach info for the Garmin as well.Sometimes a tooth counter or an added post on the alternator is required. Im just making sure you know you need an analog Tach signal before you buy the unit
This is NOT true (anymore). The later models of GHP10 will take a speed feed from the GPS. Works well. (Yes, I have one....no speculation)
Skip Ft Laud is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 01:50 PM
  #27  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,305
Default

Originally Posted by rauber View Post
No thats not true! If you have a planning hule you CAN use the tach info so the GHP 10 knows the point your boats planning. you can also use the gps info via nmea 0183/2000. But you don't need to. you can tel the pilot that you have a displacment hull and it wont ask for any speed/rpm info
Yes,I stand corrected. Im soooo glad Garmin changed that
llord is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 02:33 PM
  #28  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 2,218
Default

Can't speak about the newer Raymarine units. The last one of those I had was a 5000 on a sailboat with a linear drive.

What I don't like about Garmin:
1) Uses simple PID feedback loop algorithm (basically the larger the error, the larger the correction. Correction is approximated by measuring pump turns (what the extra cable on the back of the pump motor does)). This by nature is not as accurate as measuring rudder position.

2) While there is autoadaptive behavior for speed, however there is no auto adaptive behavior for sea state. This is what a rate gyro gives you. The rate gyro not only measures the compass error, but the rate at which the boat is turning away from the programmed course. This is paricularly noticable when in large quartering sea conditions. With a Garmin you have to apply sea state filter to stop hunting, but this results in large course errors before correction is applied and a course that is not too straight. I find that if I am trolling in rough conditions, I have to adjust the Garmin seastate filter whenever I change direction upwind to downwind.

Incidentally, the control is buried and stupidly renamed "Power Save" now. It should be called "autopilot saver" because if you do not adjust it, the helm will hunt and the AMP will overheat.

With a rate gyro, when a wave hits the quarter the Furuno sees the rate of change of course error and applies a proportional correction before a significant steering error develops. So the pilot is much faster to respond and the difference in performance is significant. In addition, this extra input allows the pilot to "learn" and automatically compensate for sea state without adjustments.


BTW, yes, the new GHP version allows you to use GPS speed instead of tach (Finally)!
scooperfl is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 03:41 PM
  #29  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member Admiral's Club Member
THT sponsor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Brookhaven, LI, NY
Posts: 15,755
Default

scoop, undersand all that. As already mentioned, my Ray units had a rate gyro (S1G and S2G), I found they both hunted MORE because of the rate gyro. I switched bak to the S1 unit (no rate gyro) and it worked better with less hunting in seas.

Now granted, the RM software on ALL of those units back then were REALLY a mess. Lastly, again, I'm not sure if the Garmin has a rate gyro or not.
Birdman is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 05:38 PM
  #30  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 2,218
Default

I did not recommend Ray, I suggested Furuno. No, a rate gyro should not make a pilot hunt more.


I would suggest Garmin for outboard boats because they have no rudder feedback sensor exposed to the outside, small size, and nice interface with Garmin MFD's.


However, if you have an inboard and want the best steering, Garmin is just not the best performer.
scooperfl is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 05:53 PM
  #31  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: S Fla
Posts: 23,400
Default

Originally Posted by scooperfl View Post
I did not recommend Ray, I suggested Furuno. No, a rate gyro should not make a pilot hunt more.


I would suggest Garmin for outboard boats because they have no rudder feedback sensor exposed to the outside, small size, and nice interface with Garmin MFD's.


However, if you have an inboard and want the best steering, Garmin is just not the best performer.
Glen E is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 06:30 PM
  #32  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: mid/lower Chesapeake
Posts: 871
Default

Originally Posted by llord View Post
Birdman.. Most owners with inboards still want to see their rudder position..Yes,personally I think its dumb. If you need to know your rudder direction you have no business behind the helm IMO. But most people do like to see their rudder posion,even on boats like yours
llord
Have you ever had to steer a large,slow moving boat @ night offshore? With nothing to keep the bow pointed towards,you're always over correcting if trying to steer by compass only. An autopilot makes running @ night waaay more tolerable A rudder position indicator is critical if you're hand steering,believe me.
Boomerang is offline  
Old 02-15-2012, 08:28 PM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,305
Default

Originally Posted by Boomerang View Post
llord
Have you ever had to steer a large,slow moving boat @ night offshore? With nothing to keep the bow pointed towards,you're always over correcting if trying to steer by compass only. An autopilot makes running @ night waaay more tolerable A rudder position indicator is critical if you're hand steering,believe me.
Have I ever had to steer a large slow moving vessel at night? On occasion,not all the time...Usually jus folow a compass heading and waypoint track,guess Im doin it wrong...Jus cause your rudders are headed straight dont mean you are...obviously
llord is offline  
Old 02-16-2012, 11:10 AM
  #34  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 18
Default Pictures

Since a few have asked:
Attached Images  
Scott B7 is offline  
Old 02-16-2012, 11:26 AM
  #35  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 18
Default Pictures

Another few
Attached Images   
Scott B7 is offline  
Old 02-16-2012, 12:19 PM
  #36  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central, New Jersey
Posts: 2,559
Default

Originally Posted by llord View Post
Have I ever had to steer a large slow moving vessel at night? On occasion,not all the time...Usually jus folow a compass heading and waypoint track,guess Im doin it wrong...Jus cause your rudders are headed straight dont mean you are...obviously
100% agreed!!!! The slower the boat moves the more the wind & current will push the boat off course. You will need to steer the bow of your boat *and therefore your rudders* to ensure you boat is heading to the next way point, your boat's bow may actually be pointed some number of degrees off your heading.
Justin_NJ is offline  
Old 02-16-2012, 12:20 PM
  #37  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central, New Jersey
Posts: 2,559
Default

Originally Posted by Scott B7 View Post
Since a few have asked:
Stunning boat!!!!! Personal use?
Justin_NJ is offline  
Old 02-16-2012, 12:41 PM
  #38  
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 18
Default

Mostly.
Scott B7 is offline  
Old 02-16-2012, 02:19 PM
  #39  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member Admiral's Club Member
THT sponsor
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Brookhaven, LI, NY
Posts: 15,755
Default

Wow, that is REALLY cool!! Thanks for pics!!
Birdman is offline  
Old 02-17-2012, 07:01 AM
  #40  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Tampa Bay
Posts: 2,218
Default

Originally Posted by Justin_NJ View Post
100% agreed!!!! The slower the boat moves the more the wind & current will push the boat off course. You will need to steer the bow of your boat *and therefore your rudders* to ensure you boat is heading to the next way point, your boat's bow may actually be pointed some number of degrees off your heading.
Rudder position is not stupid!

It is very handy for testing the rudder before getting under way and for positioning the rudder for slow speed maneuvering like crabbing into or away from a dock, etc.
scooperfl is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.