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Questions for 3g and 4g users

Old 02-08-2012, 06:26 PM
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Default Questions for 3g and 4g users

Guys,
I was wondering if anyone out there has experience with these units in heavy fog ? I presently have LCX's with a Sitex/Koden 4kw dome (LRA-2000 ? ) that is great offshore but is difficult to read in tight harbors,where target separation is critical.I'm curious if this technology works well in the soup !
Thanks,Chris
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Last One Too View Post
Guys,
I was wondering if anyone out there has experience with these units in heavy fog ? I presently have LCX's with a Sitex/Koden 4kw dome (LRA-2000 ? ) that is great offshore but is difficult to read in tight harbors,where target separation is critical.I'm curious if this technology works well in the soup !
Thanks,Chris
It is as great in heavy fog as any X-band radar due to its wide bandwidth of operation.

I have not used it all that much in fog but I have occasionally and it worked well (Chatham, MA is pretty notorious for tough and sudden fog...I just tend to avoid it.

Its ability to resolve targets and to see them very close in it what makes the 3G and 4G radars so unique. They employ FM/CWI modulation and can see right up to your gunwales/bowrail which is very different that the tube-based units that have a much larger minimum range created by their pulsed tube operation. They are also very high range resolution (about 1.5 meters) and the 4G has features to also add better angular resolution through beamsplitting.

My personal experience is more around their use in black, new moon darkness. If you look at NOAA chart 13248, I've essentially gone from C1 at the ocean to C65/N64 up at the top of that map in Orleans (Nauset Marine). Its shallow, shifty shoals that are well marked for the most part. As you get on up above the area called the River, the markers can be farther between and the shores awfully close. The 3G sees the land clutter accurately and also sees the ATON's right up to your vessel so you don't hit them, particularly if you are navigating to waypointed GPS fixes for the markers.

I always recommend getting a heading sensor like the Simrad RC42 or equivalent so that you can use your radar as an overlay to your chartplotter. Then you can really see GPS and radar together. I use an HDS-10.

Recommend that you go have a look at the New England Boat Show coming up this weekend and next week.
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:20 PM
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I have an HDS-10 and a 3G.

I live in the pacific northwest and get unbelieveable fog here.

It has worked like a charm in zero visibility fog for me.
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Old 02-08-2012, 07:27 PM
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tight spots is where it shines. the target separation and detail are excellent. I haven't run in fog yet but plenty at night....my only complaint is there a bit of a lag - more so than there was the Furuno I had prior. I have the speeds up as fast as it can go. Its not an issue when going slowly but if running and a target appears on your screen at 1 o'clock, by the time you see the blip the target is at 2 o'clock.
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:31 PM
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Chris - I've never heard anything bad about them in fog - maybe you are thinking about some of the concerns voiced about them in heavy rain? Even so, I think they still have as good close range target separation as anything out there in heavy rain. It might cut down a little on your longer range - more so w/ the 3G, but that largely depends on how high your dome is mounted anyway.

What's your plans for your LCX's if you make the move??
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Old 02-08-2012, 09:41 PM
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I had an LRA-2000 displayed on an LCX-112C. Nice unit. It was killed by a nearby lightning strike in July.

Now have a 3G, displayed on an HDS-7. Fantastic unit. Concur completely with capecuddy's comments. I use radar for navigation assistance and collision avoidance in darkness and reduced visibility conditions. There is absolutely no comparison between the 4KW pulse unit and the new 3G/4G units.

Make the change and you will not regret it.

Brian
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Old 02-10-2012, 04:23 PM
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Guy's.
Thanks for all your responses.I've read all the press but,I had to ask some real people with experience.
Cape Cuddy,I'm heading to the show this weekend.Also,will probably stop in during the week after work when it's easier to talk to people.Also,I will be adding a compass with an AP 24 autopilot in the near future.
Kitebuz,I have two LCX 26hd's with4kw that will be available.I will be able to demonstrate the units in the spring.I will be selling minus Navionics chips or a transducer.There is also an HDS 7 for sale.It's a gen1 used only long enough to verify my transducer would work with the HDS series.Let me know if you're interested.
Thanks again,Chris
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:31 PM
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If strapped for funds, I'd sooner have a 3G with chart overlay (ie., RC42) than a 4G without.

Best of course is 4G with overlay!
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Old 02-11-2012, 12:38 PM
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Here is a post I put up on a similar thread:


Originally Posted by capecuddy View Post
Pulsed, hi-power radars are going to give you more range. The question I always ask folks trying to make this decision is "Why do you want the range?" There are great and valid answers for the question. I just don't have any for my use.

The broadband radars (BR24, 3G and 4G) are more siimilar than they are different. What is great about them is:

1. Ultra close "minimum range" for navigation safety. In darkness, I can see the difference between my waypoint for a marker and the actual marker (via radar) so I don't hit it. Another example of close, when I do a hole shot, I can usually see my wake, so it sees objects within 10-20 feet of your boat.

2. The BR24, 3G and 4G are very low power radars. The bad news is that this limits its range compared to hipower pulsed radars. The good news: no personnel or equipment radiation hazards or interference similar to the hi-power pulsed radars. Lower prime power use as well. I can see tankers at 10 miles witht he 3G. With the 4G, you can see a power plant chimney at 12.5 miles (hold the applause.)

3. High range resolution....helps you separate closely spaced targets in tight quarters. The 3G is hi rez in range and med rez in angle. Many channel heads have can/nun pairs...you can see them both as you are going through them. Goodness.

4. The broadband radars work very well in their automatic modes. The only setting I mess with usually is selecting harbor or offshore clutter setting. Since I use the 3G with the Simrad RC42 heading sensor, I am able to always have my radar at the same range setting as I'm using on the chart plotter, so no "mental scaling" between a chart and a radar screen.

5. It is a great radar for avoiding hitting things in the dark and fog. Things that are past 5 or 6 miles aren't going to hit you any time soon. I use as my example, the times I was heading back through 10 miles of shallow water and 60 ATON's in new moon black darkness after I waited to get ungrounded by the late tide....twice. The last few miles were really shallow and had few markers, so I was splitting the difference between land clutter readings on each side of the channel which was only a couple hundred feet wide. (most pulsed radars have a min range of 100 feet, so no use in this application.)

6. FM/CWI waveform gives you the super short minimum range, but also gives you very effective clutter control capability and the ability to see targets in clutter. Similar to military fire control radars.

7. Broadband radars see birds well, but not at ranges you couldn't beat with binocs. When I scramble a group of ducks, for example, I'll see a oval of red speckles as they fly away. This is not like looking for birds offshore for spotting good fishing opportunties....HD/Open Array works best there.

8. the main difference among the BR24, the 3G and the 4G are signal processing methods, which are increasingly sophisticated and which add features in various situations. Unfortunately, Simrad can't resist trying to "feature" improved range detection. All three have the same "power/aperture product". If you were going to buy radars "by the pound" so to speak, you'd be comparing power/aperture product, a key radar parameter. 3 way tie in this case. The Sigpro improvements give the 3G a little edge over the BR24 and the 4G over the 3G. If I was buying today, I'd go for a sale-priced 3G and the RC42 heading sensor so I could have chart overlay that works at low speed.
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Old 02-13-2012, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by capecuddy View Post
Here is a post I put up on a similar thread:
Nice info what electronics do you have on your boat
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Old 02-13-2012, 07:15 AM
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I saw a post elsewhere this weekend detailing the rebates that will be coming on the Lowrance HDS Gen2 units (which Cabelas' spilled the beans on in one of their catalogs). The "surprise" was there is also a $100 rebate listed on the Lowrance 3G and 4G radars.... that was not in the Cabeals' catalog and until the whatever is announced on the 16th, I guess it is not confirmed, but if you are looking at buying, it might be worth holding through the week.
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Old 02-13-2012, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by hatwell View Post
Nice info what electronics do you have on your boat
1st Gen HDS-10 with LCG-4000 GPS, 3G radar, Sirius Sat Weather, GX-2150 Standard Horizon VHF/DSC/AIS integrated with HDS via N0183, RC42 heading sensor connecting via N2K to enable radar overlay on the chart, 83/200KHz transducer for sonar, ETEC 200HO N2K interface for fuel and engine data, 2 LMF-400's LCD gauges. I do data overlays for speed, rpm, mpg, trim and depth. On the LMF's, do time, fuel level, RPM, batt voltage kinda stuff.

Over the winter, I'm getting a backup N2K-connected "smart sounder" as a backup for depth (you get in trouble here in Chatham/Orleans real fast without depth). I'm adding the CMP30 mike with display for the GX-2150 as it's mounted too low to read the display well and no real alternative. Also adding Lenco short trim tabs. Also getting the MARPA connectivity finished for tracking primary radar targets on the 3G. (The RI-10 had no connection for N2K, thus couldn't set up the search windows and send to the radar without that).

Lots of integrated capability for under 5300-ish. Very happy with the capability.

Now I'd go with HDS-10 2nd Gen or Simrad NSS-12, 4G radar, RI-10 interface, RC42, same radio, not sure the GPS puck was needed. Sirius is used for music more than weather, so not really worth it IMHO.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:08 PM
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Cape Cuddy,
Any thoughts on Structure Scan ? At the show this weekend,after rebate the LSS/HDS was about the same cost as an NEP-2 /HDS purchased separately.
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Old 02-13-2012, 05:26 PM
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If you can get them at about the same price, and your Enet needs do not exceed 3 ports, then YES

HDS Enet attached devices:
HDS units
Broadband radar
Sirius Weather
StructureScan
Who knows what in the future.....

If you only have one head unit, the radar and maybe Sirius then you are ok with the LSS as your networking hub - add another head unit and you are out of ports - the NEP-2 has 5 ports.... It gets silly when you need the LSS-1 AND a NEP-2 1 but silly is fun
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:40 PM
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I'm going with two HDS 8's gen 2 and the 4g dome.The compass and gps receiver (if nec)are n2k.I haven't thought about the weather module,yet !
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Old 02-13-2012, 06:45 PM
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Definately get the heading sensor for radar overlay (N2K connected though). Sounds like the LSS would provid enough ports for you - and if you fish shallower (sub-100 ft) water that is still enough then if you can get the bundle with rebate for less than the unit + NEP-2 then it seems like a good value.
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:21 AM
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Capecuddy sounds like a good set up ,what size and type of boat do you have . I'm going to go the 12inch simrad and 4g radar probably auto pilot , structure scan with two bronze through transducers I will have the edgewater factory put them in while they are building the boat ,I hope I've made the right decision on transducer selection? From hatwell
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Last One Too View Post
Cape Cuddy,
Any thoughts on Structure Scan ? At the show this weekend,after rebate the LSS/HDS was about the same cost as an NEP-2 /HDS purchased separately.
I don't have any experience with structure scan, so I'm not much help. The reply that cited 3 or less Ethernet connex sounds like good advice.
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Old 02-19-2012, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by hatwell View Post
Capecuddy sounds like a good set up ,what size and type of boat do you have . I'm going to go the 12inch simrad and 4g radar probably auto pilot , structure scan with two bronze through transducers I will have the edgewater factory put them in while they are building the boat ,I hope I've made the right decision on transducer selection? From hatwell
I have a 22' Sea Hunt Victory 225 Walkaround. Ride in the skinny and foggy waters of Orleans/Chatham, MA.

Sounds like you are getting a sweet rig there....good luck! You'll love it!
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Old 02-19-2012, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by capecuddy View Post
I have a 22' Sea Hunt Victory 225 Walkaround. Ride in the skinny and foggy waters of Orleans/Chatham, MA.

Sounds like you are getting a sweet rig there....good luck! You'll love it!


I hope so too .just can't wait,I need to be patient, I've waited a year to order my new rig and doing my home work on my electronics that Ive neally finalized with the help from all of you thanks , tight lines
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