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-   -   A short chronicle of structure scan problem (https://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-electronics-forum/355032-short-chronicle-structure-scan-problem.html)

Nitecapt 05-30-2011 05:53 AM

A short chronicle of structure scan problem
 
Hi all,
After spending over 2K to purchase, have boat hauled and dual bronze structure scan transducers installed on my 35' keeled downeaster (one on each side of the keel), I have come to the conclusion that there is a problem with the transducers! I have been working with a very helpful tech support person at Navico who first sent me a transom mount ducer that I held over the side after attaching it to a gaff. Image was far better although not quite perfect since I suspect that holding it over the side was affecting its performance. I was also sent a new LSS1 which had no effect at all. It certainly is not he NSE 12.
So, after making this discovery over the weekend, I'll be back on the phone with tech support on Monday. The transducers by the way were mounted by an extremely well qualified installer about a foot away from the keel on either side, are joined with a "Y" cable before going into the LSS 1.

Has anyone ever had a problem like this? What did the company do about re-haul and re-installation costs?

I'll keep the members posted about Navico's efforts to resolve this issue. More than likely you are all interested in knowing.

Ray
NB: Please remember those who died for our freedom on this Memorial Day

cwolf 05-30-2011 01:57 PM

hi nite capt, just a few thoughts on your problem. Have you tried to plug in each of the ducers to the module , one at a time? this would prove that each ducer is working or not. If both ducers are giving a reading then perhaps you should be looking at the "y" cable. This should be done with the module turned off each time you unplug.

Nitecapt 05-30-2011 02:36 PM


Originally Posted by cwolf (Post 3785967)
hi nite capt, just a few thoughts on your problem. Have you tried to plug in each of the ducers to the module , one at a time? this would prove that each ducer is working or not. If both ducers are giving a reading then perhaps you should be looking at the "y" cable. This should be done with the module turned off each time you unplug.

I did indeed plug each ducer into the LSS1 separately and I also swapped the right and left. I'm pretty convinced it's the ducers and I don't know what navico will do but I suppose I'll find out this week.

slapshotjh 05-30-2011 03:32 PM

Can you describe the problem? What are you seeing on the displaY?

saltwaters 05-30-2011 04:33 PM


Originally Posted by Nitecapt (Post 3785260)
Hi all,
After spending over 2K to purchase, have boat hauled and dual bronze structure scan transducers installed on my 35' keeled downeaster (one on each side of the keel), I have come to the conclusion that there is a problem with the transducers! I have been working with a very helpful tech support person at Navico who first sent me a transom mount ducer that I held over the side after attaching it to a gaff. Image was far better although not quite perfect since I suspect that holding it over the side was affecting its performance. I was also sent a new LSS1 which had no effect at all. It certainly is not he NSE 12.
So, after making this discovery over the weekend, I'll be back on the phone with tech support on Monday. The transducers by the way were mounted by an extremely well qualified installer about a foot away from the keel on either side, are joined with a "Y" cable before going into the LSS 1.

Has anyone ever had a problem like this? What did the company do about re-haul and re-installation costs?

I'll keep the members posted about Navico's efforts to resolve this issue. More than likely you are all interested in knowing.

Ray
NB: Please remember those who died for our freedom on this Memorial Day

Did the tech confirm you have the correct software levels on the computerized parts of the systems? Is this a Simrad unit?

abbor 05-30-2011 05:49 PM

The bronze transducers for StructureScan are made by Airmar.

yz250b 05-30-2011 06:40 PM

Love mine. With a new lss 1 and transducer sent to you it seems navico has provided great support. Try your Ethernet cable from the lss 1 to the NSE, if it is kinked it will affect the quality of the structure scan picture.

Nitecapt 05-30-2011 07:34 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by saltwaters (Post 3786206)
Did the tech confirm you have the correct software levels on the computerized parts of the systems? Is this a Simrad unit?


Yes, the software is current, and while i know the transducers are made by Airmar, these are sold and serviced by Simrad.

I get very little detail and it almost seems that the sidescan feature doesn't work. For example, I will go over an intense boulder filed and get just a couple of boulders. I will go over a wreck and get the image only hen I ma right over the wreck and if I pass next to it, I don't see it. The representation of the wreck looks the same in downscan as sidescan. I have attached a photo. Doesn't matter if it's in 455 or 800Khz.

slapshotjh 05-31-2011 05:48 AM

I assume that is a wreck? It looks like you are slowly drifting by it. If the boat was in gear and moving a few knots, I would expect a more clear picture. If you are just drifting by, that is the picture I would expect to see.

in2fishn 05-31-2011 06:31 AM

I have the HDS -10 with lss-1 and I find in deeper water you will get better results with 455 khz.. Do you have any wrecks in shallower water say 20'. Give that a try and see what your results are? I find the side scan limited in deeper way say greater that 60' ;?
good luck

yz250b 05-31-2011 07:32 AM

Also you might zoom out as your sides scan is filled by the water column. It looks like you are getting great detail as you are zoomed in on the structure. You might also play with the color palet, is that the stock one loaded? Mine looks lighter. Why is the water temp not displayed?

slapshotjh 05-31-2011 08:49 AM

I agree with the above. In my waters (LIS) I switch to 455 kHz in depths greater than about 25 feet.

Nitecapt 05-31-2011 09:10 AM


Originally Posted by slapshotjh (Post 3787450)
I agree with the above. In my waters (LIS) I switch to 455 kHz in depths greater than about 25 feet.


Essentially the same results regardless of the frequency.
The next step will be to ask for an extension cable for the transom mount as it only reaches the wheel house. I plan to jury rig it to the transom without having to put screws through it and thens see what happens.
I got a fairly good image holding it over the side on a gaff but it was wobbly when we were underway even at 1 knot.

Nitecapt 06-13-2011 11:53 AM

An Update on Structure Scan Issues
 
OK...here's the scoop so far. The structure scan still does not provide an adequate image. I question its ability to see objects off to the side, at least in my installation. Simrad tech support has sent me a transducer which I temporarily moundted in the stern. I have replaced all of the LSS1 cabling and the LSS1 itself.
Suddenly, I'm not getting any call backs from phone messages or responses to my emails form the tech support person.
Looks like I'll be writing quite an article on this system, which will turn out to be a commentary on tech support. I had to go far up the Corporate ladder to get attention in the first place. Needless to say, I am not happy with Navico tech support. Next stop Humminbird!

Nitecapt 06-20-2011 02:47 PM

A little more chronology about their tech support (LONG)
 
An interesting thing happened after my last post. Someone from Navico saw the post. Someone who is high up in the customer service area contacted me via a PM and asked if they could be of help. To partially quote "I would like an opportunity to discuss the issues you are experiencing to see if we cannot find resolution to your issue as well as to address the apparent lack of response recently. Please email me". I was also provided a phone number. Interestingly I had a discussion and email exchange with this very individual back in April when I had problems with tech support during installation. So I emailed him back with copies of my prior emails to remind him that we had corresponded before. That was on June 14. So far...silence, no reply no call. I'm sure that eventually when I write to the CEO of the company I'll hear that my email got caught in a spam filter even though we had communicated before. There were discussions about other issues back then involving rebates which were supposed to be looked into and there was no follow up from this individual, nor was there follow up with the tech rep (to the best of my knowledge) about my problems. I have during the course of my career, been responsible for customer service. When I delegated something to someone else, I followed up. I believe that it was Pres. Reagan who said "Trust but Verify" in speaking about nuclear disarmament. It applies to subordinates as well. Maybe Navico will get the message when no one buys their products anymore.

Now, back to the issue at hand. I now have 2 separate and distinct systems on the boat. A pair of transducers on either side of the keel, to a Y cable feeding an LSS1 which connect to the NSE 12 via a proprietary cable.
AND
I have a transom mounted transducer, feeding to an LSS 1 with a proprietary cable which can be connected to the NSE 12 simply by unplugging the other cable and substituting this one. Ther has been little if any change in the underwater view. I can still drive by a buoy at low speed and not see the chain or the mooring, but sometimes I see what looks like a thread leading down from the surface. Sometimes I see rocks but NEVER see a wreck from the side. All of this is in less than 60' of water where performance should be optimal. Both frequencies have been tried.
I'm just going to sit back now and wait to see how much longer it will take tech support to do something about this. I will keep the members here posted.
At some point when I have the time, I'll post all of my emails and responses since April and you will all see what I hav been up against.

In the meantime, I have contacted Humminbird and they have a very nice Professional Charter Boat program. I'm going to look into it.

Ray

Charlie Chum 06-20-2011 07:13 PM

Interesting thread, Nitecapt. I myself have been looking at units offered by Navico and Humminbird. I had been leaning toward Navico, but after reading this I'm beginning to wonder.

Please be sure to post a follow-up. For sure I'll be interested.

yachtjim 06-21-2011 06:20 AM

Looks to me like one of your ducers is reversed either physically or electronically. If both are trying to shoot to the same side as it appears then they will conflict with each other.

Nitecapt 06-21-2011 06:42 AM

Definitely not
 

Originally Posted by yachtjim (Post 3833813)
Looks to me like one of your ducers is reversed either physically or electronically. If both are trying to shoot to the same side as it appears then they will conflict with each other.

I have a single transom maount transducer as well. I have hooked that up with the NSE 12 through a separate LSS1. No difference.
I also reversed the cabling on the bottom transducers just in case. No difference. They are installed properly as the anti rotation bolt goes toward the front of the boat.

divefreak 06-21-2011 07:17 AM


Originally Posted by Nitecapt (Post 3833862)
I have a single transom maount transducer as well. I have hooked that up with the NSE 12 through a separate LSS1. No difference.
I also reversed the cabling on the bottom transducers just in case. No difference. They are installed properly as the anti rotation bolt goes toward the front of the boat.

On my install i had to shift sides in the setup to get a correct reading...

but i only have 1 plastic trough hull ducer...

Nitecapt 06-22-2011 05:07 AM

Been there...done that
 

Originally Posted by divefreak (Post 3833934)
On my install i had to shift sides in the setup to get a correct reading...

but i only have 1 plastic trough hull ducer...


Thank you....I tried that as well. Still waiting to hear from Navico....some customer service! If you have a REAL problem, you may be on your own.

divefreak 06-22-2011 05:57 AM


Originally Posted by Nitecapt (Post 3836175)
Thank you....I tried that as well. Still waiting to hear from Navico....some customer service! If you have a REAL problem, you may be on your own.

they (Navico Germany) are only 30km from me....

Short enough to throw something seriuos. ;cool;

divefreak 06-22-2011 11:49 PM


Originally Posted by divefreak (Post 3836254)
they (Navico Germany) are only 30km from me....

Short enough to throw something seriuos. ;cool;

btw I´m loosing the side scan function around 20-22kn and 18m of water....

going slower or getting in shallow water brings the reading back

Downscan is fine until aprox 30kn.

Not that it is of any use at this speed, :grin:

Edd 06-23-2011 08:11 AM

Nitecap are you using a T-joiner or Multi-joiner in your network? If so, have you changed those out?

Edd

Nitecapt 06-24-2011 05:54 AM


Originally Posted by Edd (Post 3839014)
Nitecap are you using a T-joiner or Multi-joiner in your network? If so, have you changed those out?

Edd

After the transducer goes into the LSS1, it plugs directly into the back of my NSE 12. I'm not sure what you mean by a T-Joiner or Multi Joiner?

There is a Y cable to join the 2 transducers into one cable to go to the LSS1 but that's it.

Can you explain?

Nitecapt 06-24-2011 05:56 AM


Originally Posted by divefreak (Post 3838489)
btw I´m loosing the side scan function around 20-22kn and 18m of water....

going slower or getting in shallow water brings the reading back

Downscan is fine until aprox 30kn.

Not that it is of any use at this speed, :grin:


Could that be crud on your transducer?

I'm glad the people on this forum are making suggestions because I'm sure not hearing back from Navico. I'm about ready to write to the CEO.

StPeteRebel 06-24-2011 06:32 AM

Did you say that you are losing the structurescan at anything over 20 knots? That is way to fast, structurescan will not pick up anything going that fast.

kitebuz 06-24-2011 10:58 AM


Originally Posted by Nitecapt (Post 3785260)
It certainly is not he NSE 12.

Are you still sure about this?? If you have ruled out transducer & LSS by running duplicate sustems, then I would think it could be an issue w/ the head unit. That, or you are running your t'ducer cables past some serious interference ;?

Nitecapt 06-28-2011 07:04 AM

Now more than 2 weeks!
 

Originally Posted by Nitecapt (Post 3836175)
Thank you....I tried that as well. Still waiting to hear from Navico....some customer service! If you have a REAL problem, you may be on your own.


Well, I have tried to be nice, but quite simply put, NAVICO has just been completely unresponsive. Charter after charter comes On my boat and says "what's that". My answer is always the same "A very expensive side scan set up that does not seem to work and the company ignors my requests for help."

I will be writing to the CEO Lief Ottoson this evening. I am late writing an article about structure scan and this has cost me more money than I care to divulge. All I can say is that from my experience, when the chips are down, Navico just isn't there for you. Do a search on here with "Navico tech support" and you will quickly learn about their reputation. I should have listened to others.

Regardless of their answer (or non answer) I will post this group meticulously as to what occurrs. I will also likely post all of the dates of attempted contact and emails that have gone back and forth.

Nitecapt 06-28-2011 07:30 AM

I sent a link to this thread to my Navico tech support person. I received a response within 5 minutes. He advised that he had left me a voicemail message some 10 dyas ago that he would be sending the area sales rep (who is knowlegable about these issues) to look at my problem. While I have no recollection of having received such a voicemail, I would give him the benefit of the doubt so if it occurred, I woudl owe him an apology, however...this doesn't explan the lack of response to the additional email sent on 6/16 with a request for status. It still does not explain the lack of response from the VP who I quoted in a previous post.
As promised, I'll keep you posted.

Edd 06-28-2011 09:24 AM

I'm wondering Nitecapt if your 'extremely qualified technician' has talked to the same Navico techs you have?
After re-reading this thread twice in the last 45 minutes, there is one obvious conclusion that sticks out for me. The obvious is NOT the obvious. You have redundant LSS-1 systems running into the same NSE-12. Both LSS-1 systems rendering the identical problem. You say; "It's obviously not the NSE-12.". I say, what else is there left to troubleshoot? I'm wondering if you are this insistent with Navico on the NSE-12?

Is there another boat in your area which you could place your second LSS-1 and transom transducer on (temporarily) for verification? It wouldn't need an NSE-12 but any HDS would tell the tale. Seems if the LSS-1 worked fine on a donor boat, that too would indicate the NSE-12.

Edd

Nitecapt 06-28-2011 12:31 PM


Originally Posted by Edd (Post 3850073)
I'm wondering Nitecapt if your 'extremely qualified technician' has talked to the same Navico techs you have?
After re-reading this thread twice in the last 45 minutes, there is one obvious conclusion that sticks out for me. The obvious is NOT the obvious. You have redundant LSS-1 systems running into the same NSE-12. Both LSS-1 systems rendering the identical problem. You say; "It's obviously not the NSE-12.". I say, what else is there left to troubleshoot? I'm wondering if you are this insistent with Navico on the NSE-12?

Is there another boat in your area which you could place your second LSS-1 and transom transducer on (temporarily) for verification? It wouldn't need an NSE-12 but any HDS would tell the tale. Seems if the LSS-1 worked fine on a donor boat, that too would indicate the NSE-12.

Edd


Edd,
I agree with your observations. Tech support is insistant that it cannot bethe display since the function of the display is only to show what is being sent to it via the lss-1. I actually suggested this to the tech at Navico and suggested that perhaps I might want to attach a Lowrance HDS unit to the cable. There has been no effort to supply me with one, perhaps because they have concluded (right or wrong) that this can't be it.
I think you are right on the money, since there are 2 independant set ups on the boat. Perhaps a different display may behave differently.

I do see what looks like rocks here and there on the bottom, but there is little detail and I can drive slowly past a buoy and can't see the chain or the mushroom anchor which should be clearly visible. Sometimes I see what may be the chain, but it looks like a hair is on the screen.

Thank you for your encouragement.

Ray

divefreak 06-29-2011 01:37 AM


Originally Posted by StPeteRebel (Post 3841323)
Did you say that you are losing the structurescan at anything over 20 knots? That is way to fast, structurescan will not pick up anything going that fast.

that´s why i wrote this below...;cool;


Originally Posted by divefreak (Post 3838489)

Not that it is of any use at this speed, :grin:


btw it still picks up but there´s lots of clutter on the screen;)

kitebuz 06-29-2011 05:26 AM

I'm going w/ a bad connector at the head unit, or you have your LSS's mounted next to a microwave that is always running...:grin:

Nitecapt 06-29-2011 08:05 AM


Originally Posted by kitebuz (Post 3852381)
I'm going w/ a bad connector at the head unit, or you have your LSS's mounted next to a microwave that is always running...:grin:


I asked the tech at navico if there was any possibility thatthe cause may be at the head unit. His reply was:
"It is settings of the ducers, the nse is just a dumb display in this showing the video generated by the lss-1"

So I have to trust that this is the case. I believe they are working on sending the area sales rep who is knowledgable in how the unit works. Unitil then, I'll just have to wait.

kitebuz 06-29-2011 10:12 AM

Good luck w/ it. I will be interested to hear what they come up with on it. The display might be "dumb" but if the connection is bad/loose, you are going to get an interruption in the signal.

slapshotjh 06-29-2011 10:29 AM

I have an LSS-1 with an HDS 10. I can't always see a navigational bouy chain. I am not worried about it though. I too fish LIS, and the water is filthy enough where I get enough clutter at times to not be able to see these chains.

It picks up wrecks and rocks though very well.

rstuart44 06-29-2011 08:37 PM

i just installed the hds10, 3g broadband and the LSS1. I took it out in the Gulf the other day and in 100ft of water i was fishing a army tank that was sunk several years ago. I wasn't very pleased with the side scan but thought I didn't have setting right. The down scan was ok but I was expecting much more from the side scan. I was having another issue with the 3G radar that concerned me more. My brief conversation with their coustomer service didn't leave me with a fuzzy feeling. I going to make some adjustments to my install of the radar and see if it helps. In 100ft of water that is fairly clear I was looking for much more from the side scan. Any suggestions on what the contrast should be set to? On my way in I drove past a channel marker and the post showed once and didn't show another. According to the person I bought the equipment from I have 30 days to return. i will go with the hummingbird because several guys down here are running them and I have seen the displays and they are impressive. I am very pleased with hds10.

Nitecapt 06-29-2011 08:46 PM

Yeah...I'm having real misgivings about the product and even more about the tech support. I have had mine too long to return.The 12" Simrad display is beautiful, but of no use if side scan doesn't work. I bought the 6KW open array antenna which is also outstanding. My problem is that I spent a small fortune for the installation and have no use of the structure scan which is why I switched to the unit in the first place.

Something tells me that I have come upon a reality that will come to light in the future and that is that the product simply does not perform as advertised.

This sounds like class action material to me. We'll see.
Those of us that continue to have problems...keep a record, I may contact you at a later date.

Captjeffg 06-29-2011 10:27 PM

I have 2 nse -12 units and my structure scan works great. I can see wrecks in over 250 ft. I can see bait under sargasm out a couple hundred feet. I have the plastic transducer on my world cat.
Navico customer support has been great and the 3G radar is unbelievable. Very happy with Simrad.
Also my BSM-2 chirp is so baddazz. I can see bottom running at 28 knots 4000 ft deep.

Nitecapt 06-30-2011 03:56 AM

It's nice to see that someone has it working. I did a search on this forum about Navico support. Mostly I see disappointed people.


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