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-   -   A short chronicle of structure scan problem (https://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-electronics-forum/355032-short-chronicle-structure-scan-problem.html)

Nitecapt 05-30-2011 05:53 AM

A short chronicle of structure scan problem
 
Hi all,
After spending over 2K to purchase, have boat hauled and dual bronze structure scan transducers installed on my 35' keeled downeaster (one on each side of the keel), I have come to the conclusion that there is a problem with the transducers! I have been working with a very helpful tech support person at Navico who first sent me a transom mount ducer that I held over the side after attaching it to a gaff. Image was far better although not quite perfect since I suspect that holding it over the side was affecting its performance. I was also sent a new LSS1 which had no effect at all. It certainly is not he NSE 12.
So, after making this discovery over the weekend, I'll be back on the phone with tech support on Monday. The transducers by the way were mounted by an extremely well qualified installer about a foot away from the keel on either side, are joined with a "Y" cable before going into the LSS 1.

Has anyone ever had a problem like this? What did the company do about re-haul and re-installation costs?

I'll keep the members posted about Navico's efforts to resolve this issue. More than likely you are all interested in knowing.

Ray
NB: Please remember those who died for our freedom on this Memorial Day

cwolf 05-30-2011 01:57 PM

hi nite capt, just a few thoughts on your problem. Have you tried to plug in each of the ducers to the module , one at a time? this would prove that each ducer is working or not. If both ducers are giving a reading then perhaps you should be looking at the "y" cable. This should be done with the module turned off each time you unplug.

Nitecapt 05-30-2011 02:36 PM


Originally Posted by cwolf (Post 3785967)
hi nite capt, just a few thoughts on your problem. Have you tried to plug in each of the ducers to the module , one at a time? this would prove that each ducer is working or not. If both ducers are giving a reading then perhaps you should be looking at the "y" cable. This should be done with the module turned off each time you unplug.

I did indeed plug each ducer into the LSS1 separately and I also swapped the right and left. I'm pretty convinced it's the ducers and I don't know what navico will do but I suppose I'll find out this week.

slapshotjh 05-30-2011 03:32 PM

Can you describe the problem? What are you seeing on the displaY?

saltwaters 05-30-2011 04:33 PM


Originally Posted by Nitecapt (Post 3785260)
Hi all,
After spending over 2K to purchase, have boat hauled and dual bronze structure scan transducers installed on my 35' keeled downeaster (one on each side of the keel), I have come to the conclusion that there is a problem with the transducers! I have been working with a very helpful tech support person at Navico who first sent me a transom mount ducer that I held over the side after attaching it to a gaff. Image was far better although not quite perfect since I suspect that holding it over the side was affecting its performance. I was also sent a new LSS1 which had no effect at all. It certainly is not he NSE 12.
So, after making this discovery over the weekend, I'll be back on the phone with tech support on Monday. The transducers by the way were mounted by an extremely well qualified installer about a foot away from the keel on either side, are joined with a "Y" cable before going into the LSS 1.

Has anyone ever had a problem like this? What did the company do about re-haul and re-installation costs?

I'll keep the members posted about Navico's efforts to resolve this issue. More than likely you are all interested in knowing.

Ray
NB: Please remember those who died for our freedom on this Memorial Day

Did the tech confirm you have the correct software levels on the computerized parts of the systems? Is this a Simrad unit?

abbor 05-30-2011 05:49 PM

The bronze transducers for StructureScan are made by Airmar.

yz250b 05-30-2011 06:40 PM

Love mine. With a new lss 1 and transducer sent to you it seems navico has provided great support. Try your Ethernet cable from the lss 1 to the NSE, if it is kinked it will affect the quality of the structure scan picture.

Nitecapt 05-30-2011 07:34 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by saltwaters (Post 3786206)
Did the tech confirm you have the correct software levels on the computerized parts of the systems? Is this a Simrad unit?


Yes, the software is current, and while i know the transducers are made by Airmar, these are sold and serviced by Simrad.

I get very little detail and it almost seems that the sidescan feature doesn't work. For example, I will go over an intense boulder filed and get just a couple of boulders. I will go over a wreck and get the image only hen I ma right over the wreck and if I pass next to it, I don't see it. The representation of the wreck looks the same in downscan as sidescan. I have attached a photo. Doesn't matter if it's in 455 or 800Khz.

slapshotjh 05-31-2011 05:48 AM

I assume that is a wreck? It looks like you are slowly drifting by it. If the boat was in gear and moving a few knots, I would expect a more clear picture. If you are just drifting by, that is the picture I would expect to see.

in2fishn 05-31-2011 06:31 AM

I have the HDS -10 with lss-1 and I find in deeper water you will get better results with 455 khz.. Do you have any wrecks in shallower water say 20'. Give that a try and see what your results are? I find the side scan limited in deeper way say greater that 60' ;?
good luck

yz250b 05-31-2011 07:32 AM

Also you might zoom out as your sides scan is filled by the water column. It looks like you are getting great detail as you are zoomed in on the structure. You might also play with the color palet, is that the stock one loaded? Mine looks lighter. Why is the water temp not displayed?

slapshotjh 05-31-2011 08:49 AM

I agree with the above. In my waters (LIS) I switch to 455 kHz in depths greater than about 25 feet.

Nitecapt 05-31-2011 09:10 AM


Originally Posted by slapshotjh (Post 3787450)
I agree with the above. In my waters (LIS) I switch to 455 kHz in depths greater than about 25 feet.


Essentially the same results regardless of the frequency.
The next step will be to ask for an extension cable for the transom mount as it only reaches the wheel house. I plan to jury rig it to the transom without having to put screws through it and thens see what happens.
I got a fairly good image holding it over the side on a gaff but it was wobbly when we were underway even at 1 knot.

Nitecapt 06-13-2011 11:53 AM

An Update on Structure Scan Issues
 
OK...here's the scoop so far. The structure scan still does not provide an adequate image. I question its ability to see objects off to the side, at least in my installation. Simrad tech support has sent me a transducer which I temporarily moundted in the stern. I have replaced all of the LSS1 cabling and the LSS1 itself.
Suddenly, I'm not getting any call backs from phone messages or responses to my emails form the tech support person.
Looks like I'll be writing quite an article on this system, which will turn out to be a commentary on tech support. I had to go far up the Corporate ladder to get attention in the first place. Needless to say, I am not happy with Navico tech support. Next stop Humminbird!

Nitecapt 06-20-2011 02:47 PM

A little more chronology about their tech support (LONG)
 
An interesting thing happened after my last post. Someone from Navico saw the post. Someone who is high up in the customer service area contacted me via a PM and asked if they could be of help. To partially quote "I would like an opportunity to discuss the issues you are experiencing to see if we cannot find resolution to your issue as well as to address the apparent lack of response recently. Please email me". I was also provided a phone number. Interestingly I had a discussion and email exchange with this very individual back in April when I had problems with tech support during installation. So I emailed him back with copies of my prior emails to remind him that we had corresponded before. That was on June 14. So far...silence, no reply no call. I'm sure that eventually when I write to the CEO of the company I'll hear that my email got caught in a spam filter even though we had communicated before. There were discussions about other issues back then involving rebates which were supposed to be looked into and there was no follow up from this individual, nor was there follow up with the tech rep (to the best of my knowledge) about my problems. I have during the course of my career, been responsible for customer service. When I delegated something to someone else, I followed up. I believe that it was Pres. Reagan who said "Trust but Verify" in speaking about nuclear disarmament. It applies to subordinates as well. Maybe Navico will get the message when no one buys their products anymore.

Now, back to the issue at hand. I now have 2 separate and distinct systems on the boat. A pair of transducers on either side of the keel, to a Y cable feeding an LSS1 which connect to the NSE 12 via a proprietary cable.
AND
I have a transom mounted transducer, feeding to an LSS 1 with a proprietary cable which can be connected to the NSE 12 simply by unplugging the other cable and substituting this one. Ther has been little if any change in the underwater view. I can still drive by a buoy at low speed and not see the chain or the mooring, but sometimes I see what looks like a thread leading down from the surface. Sometimes I see rocks but NEVER see a wreck from the side. All of this is in less than 60' of water where performance should be optimal. Both frequencies have been tried.
I'm just going to sit back now and wait to see how much longer it will take tech support to do something about this. I will keep the members here posted.
At some point when I have the time, I'll post all of my emails and responses since April and you will all see what I hav been up against.

In the meantime, I have contacted Humminbird and they have a very nice Professional Charter Boat program. I'm going to look into it.

Ray

Charlie Chum 06-20-2011 07:13 PM

Interesting thread, Nitecapt. I myself have been looking at units offered by Navico and Humminbird. I had been leaning toward Navico, but after reading this I'm beginning to wonder.

Please be sure to post a follow-up. For sure I'll be interested.

yachtjim 06-21-2011 06:20 AM

Looks to me like one of your ducers is reversed either physically or electronically. If both are trying to shoot to the same side as it appears then they will conflict with each other.

Nitecapt 06-21-2011 06:42 AM

Definitely not
 

Originally Posted by yachtjim (Post 3833813)
Looks to me like one of your ducers is reversed either physically or electronically. If both are trying to shoot to the same side as it appears then they will conflict with each other.

I have a single transom maount transducer as well. I have hooked that up with the NSE 12 through a separate LSS1. No difference.
I also reversed the cabling on the bottom transducers just in case. No difference. They are installed properly as the anti rotation bolt goes toward the front of the boat.

divefreak 06-21-2011 07:17 AM


Originally Posted by Nitecapt (Post 3833862)
I have a single transom maount transducer as well. I have hooked that up with the NSE 12 through a separate LSS1. No difference.
I also reversed the cabling on the bottom transducers just in case. No difference. They are installed properly as the anti rotation bolt goes toward the front of the boat.

On my install i had to shift sides in the setup to get a correct reading...

but i only have 1 plastic trough hull ducer...

Nitecapt 06-22-2011 05:07 AM

Been there...done that
 

Originally Posted by divefreak (Post 3833934)
On my install i had to shift sides in the setup to get a correct reading...

but i only have 1 plastic trough hull ducer...


Thank you....I tried that as well. Still waiting to hear from Navico....some customer service! If you have a REAL problem, you may be on your own.


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