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Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

Old 12-06-2003, 10:45 AM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

No experience w/ autopilot but from archives it looks like the AP11 or AP12 are the units most recommended.
Does anyone have either of these interphased with a Garmin 2006/2010 GPS? I assume they will hook up.
What will the AP11 do that the AP12 can't?
Thanks,
Tommy

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Old 12-06-2003, 11:08 AM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

I have an AP-11 and a Garmin 2006C. There is no problem with the interface at all. The AP-11 has more features and can be adapted more readily to larger boats. Simrad bought Navico and added the AP-12, which is a Navico design.
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Old 12-06-2003, 11:42 AM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

And I have an AP-12 connected to a 2006, no problem with that setup either.

Thom
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Old 12-06-2003, 02:02 PM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

Thom,

I've been wondering which unit to buy also and have been told that the AP 11 is required if you fish / travel in rough water. Apparently the 12 or 14 can't handle the sloppy stuff that well. Do you think this is true? The AP 11 is almost twice the price. Boat I have is 27 foot center console with twin outboards by the way. Thanks.....
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Old 12-06-2003, 02:31 PM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

The capability of an Auto Pilot is in its pump and with the AP-12 you do not have a choice of pumps.

It works like this, the auto pilot is made up of a couple of parts. There is the processor (brain), the pump, and a couple of sensors that tell it which way its going and which way its steering, which may not be the same thing.

You could take the processor for an AP-12 and it would be perfectly happy to take control of the Queen Mary, and in fact you could connect a Garmin 2006 to it and run the ship from Liverpool to New York and never veer over a hundred yards off course unless you hit a hurricane. No kidding. The thing is, you'd have to take its output and instead of channeling it into the stock pump you'd have to have it control a very much larger pump. As far as the other parts go, you could use them, just not the pump.

OK, there you are with a good sized boat, and much more important, considerable heft in your steering system. Its those twin outboards that the only pump that comes with an AP-12 is going to have to contend with, and it will be hard pressed to keep up if you have an adequate steering system. So you have to go to a larger pump and the only way you can do that within the Simrad lineup is to also move to their next brain, because they don't sell it any other way.

So that's just the way it is. An AP-12 would handel your boat as far as the brain is concerend, just not the pump. I'd have to assume that you aren't using the 1.8 cubic inch helm head found on most of the single outboard boats on earth but infact have the larger helm unit and either a very large hydrualic ram or two smaller ones back at the engines. Either way you still need a larger pump's flow rates to steer the boat fast enough to keep up.

So it seems to me that for a boat as you describe you're going to need to move up to the AP-11.

Thom
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Old 12-06-2003, 07:02 PM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

Thanks a lot Thom. Very much appreciate the help you provide to all of us.....
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Old 12-06-2003, 07:19 PM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

In my boat (I have never used this) I have a garmin 2006c and a AP11. I have never hooked the two together and in fact offer the course of last winter disconnected the ap11 and never hooked it back up So I never used it. What kinds of things can I do with this combination? I think if I make routes in the 2006c I can have them feed to the AP11? Can I also have the ap11 do a box pattern on command? For example I arive on a fishing ground and rather than steer the box pattern just have the pilot do it. Or would I need a box pattern for every area I want to fish? Also what about hooking up to the radar for collison avoidance? can that be done? the radar is a Koden 3630 Just Curious.

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Old 12-06-2003, 08:05 PM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

Thom, you have completely answered my question and I sincerely thank you.
take care,
Tommy

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Old 12-07-2003, 06:57 AM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

Thom, that's a great explanation of the differences of the brain vs. pump and makes perfect sense. I'm also considering an AP12H on my 25' w/twin 150 yami's. Unless I'm missing something (very possible) I don't see why the AP12H would not work. According to the Simrad site the AP12H supports a min capacity/volume of 5.4 Cu. in. (90cc) and a max capacity/volume of 15.25 Cu. in. (250cc). I have a SeaStar front mount cylinder HC5345/HC5347/HC5348. The manual says the volume is 8.34 Cu. in. (136.6cc). Is this not well within the range of the AP12H or am I missing something?

Thanks in advance

Steve
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Old 12-07-2003, 07:59 AM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

I've seen those numbers and if Simrad believes it then so do I. You seem to be OK with the 12 but let me just give you my no-holds-barred assessment of the AP-12 pushing a single SeaStar hydraulic system, 200 hp, 23' boat, connected to one of several GPSs over time.

On anything resembeling flat water the AP-12 controls the boat like it was on rail road tracks, other boat's wakes and chop of a foot or so had no effect on it at any speed from trolling (7 knots for us ususally) right on up.

With the boat just bumped into gear and a wind of greater than maybe 15 knots the pilot will work its heart out to keep you on course but generally it can do it.

If the boat is running at quite slow speed, on the pilot, and a wave knocks it off point by, Oh, I don't know, lets say 30 degrees or so, the pilot will loose it and drop command. So very slow speed trolling in seas of anything like a large 3 foot day or anything greater than 3 feet and you're going to have trouble. Keep in mind that this is only at very low speed though.

If you are inclined to run your boat in that awful slot just below plane where you are dumping fuel through the engine, the bow is sho high you can't see, and you aren'g going anywhere (this would be between about 12~16 knots for us) the auto pilot will easily control the boat.

I have never been caught on a day when the weather was so nasty that the pilot could not control the boat at the fastest speed I could safely maintain.

Maybe Chris will pipe in and correct my memory of one of the nastiest boat trips we have had in years, because my memory of is is not one I cherrish but here goes. We had gone out of Oregon Inlet one spring morning when the seas were just big rolling swells. I don't recall the height but it was something like 6 feet on a five minute interval or something like that. Just big lazy humps comming in from the south east in the otherwise smooth water. They originated from a storm way way out there somewhere We flew out to the fishing grounds on the pilot and had a really pleasant ride. As the day wore on the wind picked up out of the north east and pushed up wind driven waves of 3~4 feet. The probelm was that the underlieing swells were still there comming in from the south. So we headed home as it got worse and worse. The basic problem was that we had big following seas from the swell at the same time as we had an increasingly steep very heavy chop comming from the starboard bow. Every easterly wave sent a sheet of water over the boat and tried its best to push us off course to the south. At the same time every surging swell either had us surfing or plowing but definitly trying to push the boat to the north. This was an absolutly shitty day. Chris sat back in the fighting chair and looked like a drowned rat, I was the standing rodent at the helm. We were able to maintain something around 17~20 knots and the auto pilot had not problem at all keeping the boat right on the GPS proscribed course. I doubt very seriously that we ever had a cross track error of 100 feet that whole 40 mile ride back in.

So that's how they work out there in the real world. I expect you've seen pictures of my boat before so you should have some idea of the sort of load the pilot had to control. We don't have a hard top but the outriggers are up there as is the radar. I expect most boats in the 25' range would have about the same frontal area and close to the same drag. The real jump in demand seems to come with boats around 28 feet or so.

Maybe I should mention something else that I always just sort of took for granted that everyone knew but maybe not. Its not a matter of the smaller pump not being able to steer a boat with a larger capacity hydraulic system. The problem is that the smaller pump will acculate the steering gear much more slowly and may not be able to react as quickly as other forces on the boat can steer it wrong. Once a boat is up on plane very little steering input is usually required and even a grossly undersized pump can keep up.

The units are at their best on any day that you are actually having a good time. Put it out there on 2~3 foot seas from any direction with the typical 10 knot accompanying winds and let her run anywhere from the mid-20's on up and all you have to concern yourself with is the watch. One of the sights I most enjoy in boating/fishing is the one on the run back home. I can look back over the transom as we haul along home and see that arrow-straight line of the prop's bubble trail as far as the eye can see. I love that.

So that's been my experience with the AP-12. You can draw your own conclusions as to how much differenct your situation and craft are to figgure out how it will work out for you.

As to the instillation of the things, its childs play. You need to find someone to make up a set of hoses for you, but the yellow pages will take care of that, then the hydraulic hookup requires a few fittings available in any well stocked hard ware store. The electrical stuff is the height of simplicity, just follow the instructions.

The only frequent failures I am aware of for these things (and you can bet I pay a lot of attention to this subject when anyone mentions it) was that with some of the last of the NAVICO branded units (light gray color case as opposed to the nearly black case of the newer ones) had problems with failure of the rudder position sensor. I recall that quite a few of them were replaced just after Simrad bought out Navico but I have not heared of a single instance of one of them failing since them. I have never heard of a failure of the brain, control unit, or flux gate compass. That is with the exception of the control unit that I ruined with the high pressure water at the car wash.

So that's about all I know to tell you, from my personal experience as well as the close track I keep of other postings about one of the things. I'm sorry to have run on for so long but maybe it will help.

Thom
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Old 12-07-2003, 08:13 AM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

rpmunroe--

quote: In my boat (I have never used this) I have a garmin 2006c and a AP11. I have never hooked the two together and in fact offer the course of last winter disconnected the ap11 and never hooked it back up So I never used it. What kinds of things can I do with this combination? I think if I make routes in the 2006c I can have them feed to the AP11? Can I also have the ap11 do a box pattern on command? For example I arive on a fishing ground and rather than steer the box pattern just have the pilot do it. Or would I need a box pattern for every area I want to fish? Also what about hooking up to the radar for collison avoidance? can that be done? the radar is a Koden 3630 Just Curious.


To answer your questions (since Ido have that precise combination):
1) yes, you can create a route on the Garmin and then use "NAV" mode on the AP-11 and it will steer in sequence to the waypoints on your route. When you get to each new waypoint, the AP-11 will beep and ask for confirmation before switching to the new waypoint.

2) No, you cannot do a box pattern. You can only steer to a compass heading in a straight line or steer to a waypoint with the GPS interface. So you would have to create waypoints and a route for each "box." I just troll in compass heading mode and then use the "dodge" function to program a new course. Just hold down one of the turn arrows and it will change the course in 10 degree increments.

3) Can't speak to your particular radar, but the AP-11 really would have no way of automatically responding to a collision avoidance system like an ARPA plotter, so I doubt it has that capability.
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Old 12-07-2003, 07:05 PM
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Default Simrad AP-11/12 with Garmin 2010C

Experiance? I have an AP-11 interfaced with a Garmin 2010 on a 27 Contender with twin 250 outboard's and the AP-11 works beautifully on long runs to the Bahamas and elsewhere.
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