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-   -   Sound system upgrade (https://www.thehulltruth.com/marine-electronics-forum/190639-sound-system-upgrade.html)

energinerbuzzy 09-26-2008 02:05 PM

Sound system upgrade
 
I decided to upgrade the inadequate sound system in the Wellcraft 238.
I have purchased a JL Audio A6450 Amp http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...dio+A6450.html
4 JL Audio M770 7.5" Marine speakers
There is a new JVC Head unit ( I-Pod compatible )in the boat already and I will be leaving it alone for now.

I am stuck on a Sub Woofer though. There is enough room in the console to cut a hole for a 10" Sub but I would have to build an enclosure for it. I also thought about buying an enclosure and just keep it inside the console.
I have searched the site and found all kinds of threads on Marine Speakers but not a whole lot on Sub Woofers. I am sure there are 100 ways to go about it and I know lots of you have subs in your rig.
Anyone have pictures of your set-up for the sub and what Brand/Type you found works best for marine applications in a center console?

tolarjm 09-26-2008 02:11 PM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 
I have had good luck running the Bazooka Marine Bass tubes. You can buy them with or without internal amplifiers. Best of all, they are Made from ABS so no wood to worry about rotting or swelling.

http://www.bazooka.com/products/mari.../MB-Series-S86

Glen E 09-26-2008 02:14 PM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 
the JL free air sub - cut a hole, mount, done...
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h3...ediumSmall.jpg

energinerbuzzy 09-26-2008 02:17 PM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 

Glen E - 9/26/2008 1:14 PM

the JL free air sub - cut a hole, mount, done...
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h3...ediumSmall.jpg
Do you know the model # for the "free air sub" I haven't seen one yet. All the JL subs I have found are designed for an enclosure.

And tolarjm, those "Powered" tube subs won't work for me. I will be pushing around 200w to the Sub with the 5th and 6th channel bridged.

mroberts34145 09-26-2008 02:27 PM

RE: Sound system upgrade
 
Buzzy, where are you planning on mounting that sub. i just bought the Sony XS-L100P5M 10" free-air sub and trying to decide on where to mount it. $99.99 at West Marine but I bought it at Amazon.com for$59.00

energinerbuzzy 09-26-2008 02:30 PM

RE: Sound system upgrade
 
I have another question also, if someone can help me with.
Exactly how does an electrical system work with multiple batteries when it comes to Sound systems? Does it become a 24v, 36v, ect with multiple batteries? If so, how will it affect audio components rated at 12v ?

I no nothing about marine electrical, sorry to sound like a dummy.

Thanks

energinerbuzzy 09-26-2008 02:41 PM

RE: Sound system upgrade
 

mroberts34145 - 9/26/2008 1:27 PM

Buzzy, where are you planning on mounting that sub. i just bought the Sony XS-L100P5M 10" free-air sub and trying to decide on where to mount it. $99.99 at West Marine but I bought it at Amazon.com for$59.00
Well considering I didn't know there was a such thing as a free air sub until now, I can't help you just yet. That opens up a whole new range of possibilities.
I would like to mount it all in the console if I can. That would be the easiest way out and as loud as mine will be, it won't matter where i put it. You'll be able to hear it clear and loud no matter where you are on the boat.

tolarjm 09-26-2008 04:29 PM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 
They make the tube in a passive version with no amplifier, works just like a regular sub. I have never used the JL free air woofer, they usually make great product though. I have just never been a fan of free air woofers, especially if you are only going to put 200 watts to it.

sorry charlie 09-26-2008 05:42 PM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 
Stick with jl their stuff is top notch and lasts a long time.

energinerbuzzy 09-27-2008 09:02 AM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 
Anyone know if I can just connect the Amp directly to the dual battery 24v system? I am treading in uncharted waters here.

cWICKBERG 09-27-2008 09:05 AM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 

Glen E - 9/26/2008 5:14 PM

the JL free air sub - cut a hole, mount, done...
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h3...ediumSmall.jpg
I have this set up and my Sub is located in the console, without an enclosure...Considereing it is in a boat and not in an enclosed room...it sounds great for my taste...I power it with a kenwood 400W amp...I also have the JL speakers and they are expensive but worth it when you crank up the volume....

Birdman 09-27-2008 11:47 AM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 

energinerbuzzy - 9/27/2008 12:02 PM

Anyone know if I can just connect the Amp directly to the dual battery 24v system? I am treading in uncharted waters here.
energinerbuzzy,
All marine and auto (same stuff not colored white for the most part) are 12v systems. Your boat, regardless of how many batteries operates on either 12v (MOST boats) or 24v (some larger boats). And, most of those larger boats with 24v systems, ALSO have 12v systems as well since not everything is available in 24v configurations (like bilge pumps for example).

So, if you boat is like MOST, it is a 12v boat, with multiple batteries for use on different things (one for motor, one for hosue electronics (VHF, GPS, bilge pumps...). So that means you need 12v stereo stuff including amp.

HOWEVER, IF by some stretch you actually do have a 24v boat, you would have to buy a 24v AMP to plug directly into it. I've never seen such a device (althpough it may very well be available??). OR, just put a 24v to 12v converter inline, and install a normal 12v amplifier and stereo, I would imagine this would be the preferred method. So to answer your question directly, NO, you can NOT connect a 12v amp, directly to a 24v system. BUT, you can get a 24v to 12v step down converter, and then connect the amp indirectly.

Hope that helps.

energinerbuzzy 09-27-2008 01:41 PM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 
Ok I quess I better ask this then. If I ran the power directly to one of the batteries ( I have two ) and I select "all batteries" on the switch. Won't that make it 24 volt. Thats the part I am confused on. I always thought that if I selected "both batteries", that the boat is running and rechanging off both batteries at the same time. If this is the case then does the switch have some kind of 24v to 12v converter built in to it?

Birdman 09-27-2008 02:34 PM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 
Ok, this is a long story, but I will cut to the chase and go right to the bottom line. There are two ways to connect 2 batteries to a system:

1 Parrallel: In para, they are connected in a way that keeps the system 12v's, but combines the power of both batteries. In otherwords, it makes the system look like one big battery instead of 2 batteries.
2 Series: This connects the 2 battery's so in "series" so that they add each battery's power to each other. So each batter is 12v, add them togoether and the system is 24v's.

Boats for the most part are wired with the #1. Your switch #1, #2 OR both selections is only selecting whihc batteries are attached to the system. This allows you to "isolate" battery's for specific functions so you don't run them all dead and get stuck somewhere. For example, you anchorded all day playing yoru stereo and runnning the refridge, you don't wat to kill yoru starting battery, otherwise you would not be able to get home. But you don't care if you kill the 2nd "house" battery, so you put your switch on #2. Taht leaves battery #1 off the circuit, and keeps it fresh untilyou are ready to go home, at which time you switch the selector to #1, and start you motor with a nice3 fresh battery that has sat idle all day long while you drained your 2nd battery booming Bob Marley.

So in your case, you want to connect you amplifier to the output of the selector switch. So which ever # 1, 2 or both you select the swith to, you cna run the stereo / amp. It will be 12 volts, and will run off battery #1, #2 or both batteries.

BUT, I will advise this VERY strongly. If you are asking a question like this, you should definitely have somebody else do this install. Let somebody who understands electric a little better do this for you.

bignick1 09-27-2008 05:02 PM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 
Buzzy:

You should definitely have someone help you out if you are stuck on the battery issue. JL audio makes both a Free air and a sub made for an enclosure. The free air model has "IB" in the model number. For the free air model you don't need an enclosure. However make sure the area where the sub is mounted is adequate, if not it should be reinforced so when the sub is cranking the speaker frame does not vibrate. ( I had to use 1/2 inch starboard behind my speaker to firm it up. I rear mounted for a more pleasing look, but you could mount the baffle board in the front as most do.) When running your power wire for the amp make sure you do not use anything less than 4 gauge and if it is a long run you may have to step down to 2 gauge. Remember to run the same gauge wire for ground. Some will think four gauge or even two gauge is overkill, but you will thank me in the long run. You should run the power wire directly to the battery and properly fused 18" from the battery. I do not recommend running your power wire to your battery switch. In closing you should have some sort of a fail safe so you do not kill your batteries while enjoying the music with the engine off. There are many ways to accomplish this, the easiest is the ACR relay. Good luck

Nick

energinerbuzzy 09-27-2008 08:21 PM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 
Those were the answers I was looking for, Thanks!!
Yes I do plan on having the main power ran to the console at the dealer. I can handle the amp install my self, I just wasn't sure about the 12/24 power.
I will get the main leads ran and check with a volt meter before I do anything though.

Sorry to sound like a dummy but at least i am smart enough to ask.

Thanks guys!

JoeCantFish 09-29-2008 04:43 PM

RE: Sound system upgrade
 
Sorry Im late to reply to this post, but here is my take on the 'Infinite Baffle' JL subs...and all Infinite Baffle subs....They all sound -sub par-...hhahah, sorry for the pun

Ive been in mobile electronics for many moons (15 years) and Ive never ever heard an enclosureless sub sound good. Even if it had the JL symbol mounted on the cone. Ive worked on many boats and every sub that didnt have an enclosure was better at vibrating the hull than producing any sound. Keep in mind, a subwoofer is really only designed to produce freq below 90 hz (most house subs are designed for 60)...You will never hear this sucker while underway and you'll get to brag about it while anchored only to realize that you are talkin out your butt.

Subs need an air cushion to assist the amp in pulling the sub back in after a strong note. Otherwise, it will just keep bouncing around until the next big note. The result is a very muddy sound and an uspet owner for cutting a rather large hole in your hull.

check out the XMax of a sub....its the maximum amount of linear movement of a cone. I cannot remember the measurement, but an amplifier must have the capability to pull out the voltage as fast as it send it to the sub. If not, guess what....the sub bounces around like crazy which aids to the muddiness. Especially if it has a high xmax

I have the same JL amp (6450) installed in our boat, a pioneer head unit, and 6 pioneer 8" 2 way speakers. These things sound awesome. (8" 2 way !!! I was like, WHUUUT!!) I hear all the bass I need (I used to be that idiot butthead at stop lights banging away) and the clarity and midrange is perfect. Unless you have room for an enclosure (or bass tube) I wouldn't recommend an IB sub...

Now Im sure that someone will disagree with me, but before cutting a HUGE hole in your boat, Please Please goto a dealer that has one installed. I feel that JL audio (I managed a shop and we were a JL dealer) included this in their lineup just to sell more subs to a niche (which is what JL audio does)...Just my opinion :thumbsup:

Oh and BTW, I have 2 10" JL subs and a 250/1 monoblock installed in my truck...I love JL audio....

Glen E 09-29-2008 04:46 PM

Re: Sound system upgrade
 
anyone in S fla that want's to hear 2 JL free air subs mounted in a 32 foot boat, please just call or email me - mine sound far from "muddy" and I've owned and installed subs for years in 2 boats and 4 cars...I do agree that you need strong bulkheads to mount to.....

Duct Tape 09-29-2008 05:20 PM

RE: Sound system upgrade
 

JoeCantFish - 9/29/2008 7:43 PM

Sorry Im late to reply to this post, but here is my take on the 'Infinite Baffle' JL subs...and all Infinite Baffle subs....They all sound -sub par-...hhahah, sorry for the pun

Ive been in mobile electronics for many moons (15 years) and Ive never ever heard an enclosureless sub sound good. Even if it had the JL symbol mounted on the cone. Ive worked on many boats and every sub that didnt have an enclosure was better at vibrating the hull than producing any sound. Keep in mind, a subwoofer is really only designed to produce freq below 90 hz (most house subs are designed for 60)...You will never hear this sucker while underway and you'll get to brag about it while anchored only to realize that you are talkin out your butt.

Subs need an air cushion to assist the amp in pulling the sub back in after a strong note. Otherwise, it will just keep bouncing around until the next big note. The result is a very muddy sound and an uspet owner for cutting a rather large hole in your hull.

check out the XMax of a sub....its the maximum amount of linear movement of a cone. I cannot remember the measurement, but an amplifier must have the capability to pull out the voltage as fast as it send it to the sub. If not, guess what....the sub bounces around like crazy which aids to the muddiness. Especially if it has a high xmax

I have the same JL amp (6450) installed in our boat, a pioneer head unit, and 6 pioneer 8" 2 way speakers. These things sound awesome. (8" 2 way !!! I was like, WHUUUT!!) I hear all the bass I need (I used to be that idiot butthead at stop lights banging away) and the clarity and midrange is perfect. Unless you have room for an enclosure (or bass tube) I wouldn't recommend an IB sub...

Now Im sure that someone will disagree with me, but before cutting a HUGE hole in your boat, Please Please goto a dealer that has one installed. I feel that JL audio (I managed a shop and we were a JL dealer) included this in their lineup just to sell more subs to a niche (which is what JL audio does)...Just my opinion :thumbsup:

Oh and BTW, I have 2 10" JL subs and a 250/1 monoblock installed in my truck...I love JL audio....
no disrespect intended, but i used to judge USAC car audio competitions, and I have heard many IB installs that sound great. I have also performed many of these installs on boats with great results.

The problem is, most people dont take the time to truly seal the front of the speaker from the back. Maybe you are used to hearing poor installations? ;?

Also, what many people fail to realize, is that there is a major difference between a "free air" installation, and an "infinite baffle" installation. Infinite baffle seperates the front of the speaker, from the back. A true infinite baffle would be the same as an infintely large sealed enclosure. It can be difficult to simulate this on smaller boats, and those boats may require a subwoofer with a full enclosure. But on the boats I work on, we have no problem going infinite baffle.

Free air on the other hand, is no enclosure at all, and the front of the speaker does not get seperated from the rear of the speaker, and you end up with cancellation.

wosadczuk 09-30-2008 08:10 PM

RE: Sound system upgrade
 
Well said.

Wally
Pro audio Consultants


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