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Old 12-22-2003, 11:38 AM
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Looking through the Archives I can't seem to find an answer....

Looking into getting a radar on my 23 CC. Mainly to be used for nite, fog, and other restricted vis. situations, as well as tracking t-storms. Looking at Color LCD units. So the first question is 2kw or 4kw?

Next question..Which is the better choice the Raymarine RL70CRC package deal or one of the Furuno NavNet systems? It looks like the Raymarine package is much more $$ by the time you buy the radome and transducer. Is it worth the extra $$??

Thanks in advance for the info...
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Old 12-22-2003, 12:19 PM
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HAVE SAME QUESTIONS,WENT TO CONSUMERS MARINE ELECTRONICS ON SATURDAY.THEY RECOMMENDED A FURUNO WITH A 4 KM.I THINK I'M GOING WITH THE OPEN ARRAY,AS IT WAS EXPLAIND TO ME BECAUSE OF THE NARROWER BEAM.THAT BEING SAID,I POSTED A SIMALIAR QUESTION AND THOM REPLYED [I THINK ] THAT THE RAYMARINE 2KW DOME WORKS FINE.I'M GOING TO MAKE UP MY MIND BY THE NY BOAT SHOW.

GOOD LUCK
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Old 12-22-2003, 12:38 PM
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I like the Raymarine Radar better. As for the package deal, remember your getting a FF also, not just radar so you can't compare prices that way. The prices of the Foruno and Raymarine are the same.

As for the open array, they are better, but also cost alot more moooolahhh!!

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Old 12-22-2003, 12:52 PM
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Sorry, I wasn't clear. I mean to compare them apples to apples. Yes the Raymarine deal comes with FF, GPS, VHF. But if you buy the seperate components for the NavNet system it still comes out less $$

2kw NavNet with FF, GPS is about $2500 + transducer

2kw Raymarine is about $3100 + $880 for the dome + you still need a transducer for the FF.

Both are 7" color LCD. What am I missing?
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Old 12-22-2003, 01:27 PM
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At a local national store I'm looking at RL70CRC w/RayNav 300 not the vhf!!!!, Radome, Transducer,Icom502, thats 4345.85, need to add fairing block 250.00? and Digital antenna 200.00 with mount, a Kva Comp 330.00, and C map chip 175.00... grand total 5300.00 add an extra 10% off if I apply for there credit card .... Mount it all my self ....you might need a 100.00 in mounting extra's ...JOhn


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Old 12-22-2003, 05:04 PM
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buy the nav net you will be much happier. Trust me on on my second one with the new boat. I also have right next to it the new northstar 6000i. Both ar ten in screens. I have the furuno as radar/plotter/ff and the northstar as plotter/ff. The northstar screen and plotter can not be beat, but the furuno radar/ff are much better.
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Old 12-22-2003, 05:34 PM
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Buy the RayMarine you will be much happer. I got the "Value package". FF with a digital ducer (furuno is still out in the cold), ChartPlotter (C-Map), GPS, Radar and a freeeee radio. Do you want to buy a Radio? The box has never been opened.
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Old 12-23-2003, 07:17 AM
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bluefin2na & jtburf,

I'm in a similar situation as you but I want dual 7" displays. I only have a single station so I'm not so sure how important Navnet or HSB2 are to me other than I like the HDFI and that requires HSB2.

I don't necessarily need to exchange display data from one unit to another but if I were to require redundancy I would prefer it in the navigation (chartplotter) scenario.

I've put together a spreadsheet of about 8 different systems and all have their pros and cons. I've listed the ones that I have the most interest below along with some of the overall pros and cons as I see them.

Raymarine pros: excellent display & HDFI
Raymarine cons: expensive with dual displays and poor integration with C-Map PC Planner, which I happen to like but it's not a show stopper. There are workarounds but it's a pain.

Furuno pros: good display, time proven
Furuno cons: expensive, proprietary C-Map chip, slower refresh with C-Map vs. Navionics and no integration with C-Map PC Planner.

JRC pros: inexpensive
JRC cons: not as good of display resolution, no C-Map PC Planner integration but numbers can be downloaded via serial interface using NAVLink.

The packages I've narrowed it down to are:

Raymarine (Valuepak includes RL70CRC, DSM250, Raystar 120 + crappy VHF that I would ditch) + (L760 with P66 transom mount tri-ducer) + 2kW dome. Cost about $6.1K (advantage is HSB2 so display information can be shared)

Raymarine (SL70CRC includes Raystar 120) + (L770D includes DSM250) + (P66 transom mount tri-ducer) + 2kW dome. Cost about $4.95K (disadvantage is SL does not support HSB2 so no display information can be shared)

Furuno (1722C includes 2kW dome) + (BBWGPS) + (FCV-582L) + (transom mount tri-ducer) Cost about $3.93K (disadvantage is no sharing of display information and no network sounder as the FCV-582L is not Navnet)

Furuno (1722C includes 2kW dome) + (GP1700 includes BBWGPS) + (BBF1 network sounder) + (transom mount tri-ducer) Cost about $4.91K (advantage is shared display information through Navnet and redundant plotter)

JRC (1800CP includes GPS & 2kW dome) + (FF50) + (transom mount tri-ducer) Cost about $3K (disadvantage is no sharing of display information)

JRC (1800CP includes GPS & 2kW dome) + (Plot 500F includes GPS) + (transom mount tri-ducer) Cost about $3.45K (advantage complete GPS redundancy including antennae & plotter) (disadvantage is no sharing of display information)

I'm making no comparisons of quality or preference here. I only wanted to compare the options for dual 7" displays providing radar, chart plotting and FF functionality. The prices are based on the same internet electronics wholeseller. As you can see JRC is the least expensive, followed by Furuno and finally Raymarine.

Personally I have not yet decided but I'm leaning toward either the Furuno or Raymarine.

Just wanted to share my comparisons and not want to get into a battle of who is better.

*
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Old 12-23-2003, 10:20 AM
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quote:Originally posted by bluefin2na:
2kw NavNet with FF, GPS is about $2500 + transducer

2kw Raymarine is about $3100 + $880 for the dome + you still need a transducer for the FF.

Both are 7" color LCD. What am I missing?

Bluefin,
Your missing everything! Your still comparing apples to oranges. FORGET about pricing each peice and add on. Price the whole thing, every receiever, radom, transducer, screen, total it up, Then compare.

They will come out almost the same for the Foruno and Raymarine. However, the Raymarine will be using a state of the art Digital transcuder/fish finder, and you will have Radar overlay (by adding a heading sensor). Can't go wrong with that.

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Old 12-23-2003, 10:45 AM
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Birdman,
Ok Ok, so i'm missing EVERYTHING! That doesn't suprise me. I see your point though.

What are thoughts on the power issue? 2kw vs. 4kw?

Thanks...
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Old 12-23-2003, 10:51 AM
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BIRDMAN,

DOESN'T FURUNO ALSO HAVE A HEADING SENSOR SO YOU CAN OVER LAY THAT UNIT? I'M ALSO LOST
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Old 12-23-2003, 10:55 AM
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Bluefin ....I have the entire package priced right at 5100.00
with an Icom 502, digital antenna , all raymarine ,,,, radome , raynav the work's ..... john


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Old 12-23-2003, 11:19 AM
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I'm not convinced that the higher power or narrower horizontal beam width are worth the money at that level. I know that when I bought my 2 kW unit (Raytheon SL-72) I did not think that it was worth the extra several hundred bucks to move up, still don't think to to tell you the truth.

The thing is that while there are gains to be had from the additonal power, and the narrower beam too, its still not enough at the ranges we're talking about to make much difference. It is absurd to pay any attention at all to the range claims of the respective units, 24 and 48 miles because simply understanding that doubling the power will never give you double the distance. I mean when you got out of your first high school science class you understood that to double the range you'd have to square the power (you all knew that, right?) and so right on its face the advertising for the machines is a lie. A realistic horizon for most small boats is within about 12 miles and I'd just bet that a lot more of them spend their useful time reading between 2 and 4 mikes than any other ranges. That is where you are using the thing for Collision Avoidance, which is its real job. No 2 or 4 kW unit is going to spot birds for you and and a 2 kW will shoot through rain or fog for the real distances that matter. As far as the horizontal beam width goes, well I will go to exactly the same effort to avoid hitting one large target as I will two closley spaced targets so that's a non issue - or at least it is at the realistic ranges that get used. By the way, want to know the only times I ever crank up the range (and gain) on mine? Its when I happen to know that something is out there past eyesight and I just want to see if I can spot it or not. As an example there is a tall bridge I pass under to go fishing and I'll almost always crank up the Radar on the ride back in just to see how soon I can spot it (an SL-72 will spot the Bonner Bridge, over Oregon Inlet from about 15 miles out). The thing is that once I'm inside of that inlet it goes right back to a very much shorter range. I think I may have already mentioned the one thing that my radar did show that really impressed me.

One afternoon when comming back into the Oregon Inlet Fishing Center's public ramps I had made the trun out of the Crack and ahead of me by about a quarter mile there were two guys in an aluminum Johnboat, I'd guess it to have been about 12 feet. They were both standing and the boat had a freeboard of about 6 inches. The radar lit them right up. I would not have hit that small boat in the heaviest of fogs, and that, my dear friend, is what really matters. I'm serious.

Thom

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Old 12-23-2003, 11:29 AM
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quote:Looking into getting a radar on my 23 CC. Mainly to be used for nite, fog, and other restricted vis. situations, as well as tracking t-storms.

IF navigation is NOT a consideration and helm space and $$$ is then IMHO you would be well served by either the Furono 1712 (2.2kw radome) or the comparable Ryatheon. I have the 1712 and my brother has the Raytheon. Very similar units in function and sensitivity as well as ease of use. Able to spot lobster pot bouys in pea soup fog while raining. Around $1500.

Just my $.02 worth.

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Old 12-23-2003, 01:16 PM
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The Navnet does indeed have overlay. You must have a heading sensor to use it. If you have an autopilot such as the Simard AP11, that can be used to provide the heading data. Contrary to popular belief, you do NOT need the rate compass. The fluxgate works fine if you have the junction box which has external connections (cannot recall the exact model).

There are many opinions as to which brand provides the best performance. I prefer Furuno while others like Raymarine or Northstar. You might find it interesting that EVERY USCG lifeboat is being equipped with a 1933C Navnet which is quite amazing since the feds almost always used Raytheon.

The best advice is to talk to people that have used the various components and try to get some hands on experience before deciding.
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Old 12-23-2003, 01:20 PM
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The power difference between a 2kw and 4kw is almost nothing. Well, acutally the power is twice the amount, but what I mean is the difference in the picture will be nothing unless (a big unless), you are in some serious rain and still want to see 8 miles out for some reasons. The extra power will let you penitrate further in weather. But I have no experience with that. However, I have seen my exact setup (raymarine 7" screen with 2kw dome), instead with a 4kw dome, in nice weather (clear out) and I could not see any difference at any range.

However, the one open array that I have seen, was a world of difference. So I personally think that narrower beam makes a crapload of difference. But, it also costs a crapload more. My take on it is, if ya can afford and fit an open array, get one. If ya can't, get a 2kw unit.

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Old 12-23-2003, 01:32 PM
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Thanks Thom and Birdman for the info. on the power. I was leaning towards the 2kw unit because I just couldn't see the value/need of anything more unless you go with a open array as was said. Just wanted to make sure that my thinking was correct!
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Old 12-23-2003, 06:53 PM
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Bear in mind Furuno no longer makes the 1751 2kw open array I had on my last boat but they DO offer that 26" array on the 7" Navnet.

That would be my choice for a boat that would not fit the 1933 with 10.4" display and 3.5' array. I agree 100% with Birdman that the array DOES make a big difference in discriminating targets, especially markers in a narrow channel in the dark. I don't know of any other small open array.
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Old 12-24-2003, 08:59 AM
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I have the SL72, 2kW. One of the most annoying things is looking at a 25' boat 1.5 miles off in 3' seas and NOT seeing it on the radar. If it is calm, I pick it up, but not when it is bumpy. I've tried tuning it, but it won't do it.

At 2kW, you are looking at close range collision avoidance, don't expect to reliably paint targets more than 1 mile away in typical sea conditions. I will say that you see everything at 3/4 mile.

The 4kW are supposed to be better, but I don't know how much. I do know several people that upgraded for just this reason.
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Old 12-24-2003, 09:30 AM
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Casey,
How are you tuning it? Cuase my unit (same as yours) is NOT affect by sea conditions at all. I leave the "SEA" setting in AUTO most of the time. The only time I adjusted that setting manually was when I was in some very large rolling seas offshore 2 years ago, it was having problems in the auto setting holding the horizon so the picture was kinda bonky.

Anyway, the 4kw unit will not help that situation at all, that has nothing to do with power.

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