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Boating Accident at Govít Cut Miami kills 2

Old 04-25-2019, 08:23 AM
  #221  
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Originally Posted by Seacat FL View Post
They will simply hit something else. There are a lot of things that could be hit by someone between Government Cut and Hillsboro Inlet on a dark Saturday night.
Reminding me of the "very experienced boater" who slammed into a range marker in Tampa Bay not so long back....
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Old 04-25-2019, 08:34 AM
  #222  
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I have seen a lot in this discussion about the boat owner and the fact that he was an experienced person. It has also been pointed out that he was vefamiliar with this channel and that the channel is already well marked. It also seems evident that at least some of the people on board had been drinking and that they were likely impaired. What I have not seen (but perhaps missed) was whether the owner of the boat was the operator at the time of the accident. If he was not the operator at the time, it would certainly open up the possibility that a less experienced person made the mistake of cutting out of the channel premeaturely.
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Old 04-25-2019, 08:39 AM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by Dan M View Post
I have seen a lot in this discussion about the boat owner and the fact that he was an experienced person. It has also been pointed out that he was vefamiliar with this channel and that the channel is already well marked. It also seems evident that at least some of the people on board had been drinking and that they were likely impaired. What I have not seen (but perhaps missed) was whether the owner of the boat was the operator at the time of the accident. If he was not the operator at the time, it would certainly open up the possibility that a less experienced person made the mistake of cutting out of the channel premeaturely.
I'm sure when the gentleman in the hospital starts talking it will answer a lot of questions.
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Old 04-25-2019, 09:05 AM
  #224  
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Bottom line,,,,,,,
when you hold a steering wheel in your hand that controls a vehicle, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE !!!

The name calling on here because some one disagrees with your view just shows the kind of person you are.
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Old 04-25-2019, 09:17 AM
  #225  
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Well if he was tanked - i'll have to concede to those who called out negligence early on here..
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Old 04-25-2019, 09:47 AM
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Jillybird you hit most of it on the head. I can’t understand how people 1000’s of miles away can comment and show charts,and quote laws when have never been a regular boater here. Not only that, there are so many opinions of which way the boat was heading. Look I have boated that area since 1970 in all weather conditions. Yes the channel is well lit as channels go entering and leaving the cut. The problem is in rough weather and high tide with no moon you can become disoriented if you are running at any speed and the rocks are covered. The tendency is to run along the beach and before you know it you are coming up on the rocks. Boaters are among the most ignored group in the country. If a marker goes down it may not be replaced, or you may not be able to boat in area because some one complained about a blade of grass disturbed. Look there will always be an accident, if on a highway they will put up walls, barriers, expand roadway billions of dollars. Why not put up a series of cheap led lights the length of the rock on the cut. Green on one side red on the other. The sun will generate the electricity for free. It would be beautiful, safer for boaters and an aid to navigation for planes and boats. If you can do bridges you can do jetties.
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Old 04-25-2019, 09:52 AM
  #227  
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Originally Posted by bikergja View Post
Why not put up a series of cheap led lights the length of the rock on the cut. Green on one side red on the other.
Because then the rocks would look like the channel?
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Old 04-25-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by jillybird View Post
Everyone agrees that the boat operator was 100% negligent. I think he was clearly criminally reckless and had he survived, he would have been charged with manslaughter. I also agree that Government Cut is well marked and appropriated lighted for professional mariners, especially commercial ships entering from the sea or exiting. As I've said before, I go in and out of the Cut day and night in all sea conditions. Government Cut can be a real mess. It's a tricky place that demands constant sober attention. You can have a massive incoming cruise ship bearing down on you while jet skis are buzzing you like mosquitoes. In the dark, the unlighted North Jetty in particular is VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE under many conditions. But besides the professional mariners, a zillion morons use the Cut, including imbecile jet skiers jumping wakes or jumping the huge standing waves that can be present when there's a strong easterly wind against a raging outgoing tide. Lots of boaters (mostly recreational) race down South Beach from the north just off the beach and then find themselves fast approaching the barely visible North Jetty. Sadly, a large percentage of Miami boaters are intoxicated, stoned, wasted, trashed, drunk, or whatever you want to call them when they are operating their vessels. Just check out the sandbars at Nixon's Beach or Haulover and you'll know what I'm talking about. It's remarkable more people aren't chopped up at those places every weekend. So, as responsible citizens, do we just throw up our hands and say "every boater is responsible for his own actions and must take personal responsibility" and leave it at that? And so what if a bunch of operators under the influence keep killing themselves and their passengers? Or do we take reasonable steps to modify KNOWN HAZARDS so that there's a chance that recurring deaths might be avoided.

The unlighted North Jetty has resulted in 6 deaths since 2016 from the same cause. There's a reasonable chance that those deaths might have been avoided had there been lighting of some sort on the jetty. I've proposed a couple of lighted yellow special purpose buoys or lighted white information marks. What would the total cost of that be? $20,000? $30,000. Would they have prevented these deaths? Who knows? Would they have caused confusion to a professional mariner coming into port as the Coast Guard fears? That's completely idiotic. Today's Miami Herald calls for lighting on the jetty. The Miami-Dade Mayor calls for lighting on the jetty. Miami-Dade marine patrol has in the past. Sen. Rubio has too. We need to do something. For the sake of this poor kid who lost both his parents, why not try? I'm going to write the Coast Guard, Miami Sector, demanding the installation of lighting. I've had enough.
With all due respect, there have been two tragic accidents since 2016 at government cut with 1000's upon 1000's of others using the same area without issue. Albeit, drunk, intoxicated, stoned etc...

The two accidents since 2016 seem to both involve alcohol and/or drugs and poor decision making.

I don't think that the yellow special purpose buoys or white information marks would have affected either of the boat crashes. In fact, studies have shown that additional lights would only interfere with navigation of the waterway.

You want to make some changes? Make it so that every person who is the registered owned of a vessel in Florida has to:
- take a safe boating course;
- make sure that boats require liability security.

Adding markers is not the solution.

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Old 04-25-2019, 10:00 AM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by bikergja View Post
Jillybird you hit most of it on the head. I canít understand how people 1000ís of miles away can comment and show charts,and quote laws when have never been a regular boater here. Not only that, there are so many opinions of which way the boat was heading. Look I have boated that area since 1970 in all weather conditions. Yes the channel is well lit as channels go entering and leaving the cut. The problem is in rough weather and high tide with no moon you can become disoriented if you are running at any speed and the rocks are covered. The tendency is to run along the beach and before you know it you are coming up on the rocks. Boaters are among the most ignored group in the country. If a marker goes down it may not be replaced, or you may not be able to boat in area because some one complained about a blade of grass disturbed. Look there will always be an accident, if on a highway they will put up walls, barriers, expand roadway billions of dollars. Why not put up a series of cheap led lights the length of the rock on the cut. Green on one side red on the other. The sun will generate the electricity for free. It would be beautiful, safer for boaters and an aid to navigation for planes and boats. If you can do bridges you can do jetties.

Would slowing down work? I mean after all the postings are usually SAFE speed right?
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Old 04-25-2019, 10:28 AM
  #230  
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Originally Posted by jillybird View Post
Everyone agrees that the boat operator was 100% negligent. I think he was clearly criminally reckless and had he survived, he would have been charged with manslaughter. I also agree that Government Cut is well marked and appropriated lighted for professional mariners, especially commercial ships entering from the sea or exiting. As I've said before, I go in and out of the Cut day and night in all sea conditions. Government Cut can be a real mess. It's a tricky place that demands constant sober attention. You can have a massive incoming cruise ship bearing down on you while jet skis are buzzing you like mosquitoes. In the dark, the unlighted North Jetty in particular is VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE under many conditions. But besides the professional mariners, a zillion morons use the Cut, including imbecile jet skiers jumping wakes or jumping the huge standing waves that can be present when there's a strong easterly wind against a raging outgoing tide. Lots of boaters (mostly recreational) race down South Beach from the north just off the beach and then find themselves fast approaching the barely visible North Jetty. Sadly, a large percentage of Miami boaters are intoxicated, stoned, wasted, trashed, drunk, or whatever you want to call them when they are operating their vessels. Just check out the sandbars at Nixon's Beach or Haulover and you'll know what I'm talking about. It's remarkable more people aren't chopped up at those places every weekend. So, as responsible citizens, do we just throw up our hands and say "every boater is responsible for his own actions and must take personal responsibility" and leave it at that? And so what if a bunch of operators under the influence keep killing themselves and their passengers? Or do we take reasonable steps to modify KNOWN HAZARDS so that there's a chance that recurring deaths might be avoided.

The unlighted North Jetty has resulted in 6 deaths since 2016 from the same cause. There's a reasonable chance that those deaths might have been avoided had there been lighting of some sort on the jetty. I've proposed a couple of lighted yellow special purpose buoys or lighted white information marks. What would the total cost of that be? $20,000? $30,000. Would they have prevented these deaths? Who knows? Would they have caused confusion to a professional mariner coming into port as the Coast Guard fears? That's completely idiotic. Today's Miami Herald calls for lighting on the jetty. The Miami-Dade Mayor calls for lighting on the jetty. Miami-Dade marine patrol has in the past. Sen. Rubio has too. We need to do something. For the sake of this poor kid who lost both his parents, why not try? I'm going to write the Coast Guard, Miami Sector, demanding the installation of lighting. I've had enough.
this is false. you have no empirical or other evidence that indicates the light would have avoided the accident. none, other than an argument that sounds like a PI attorney's negligence complaint. there is already a flashing red light in the middle of the north jetty and then another one at the end to indicate that it is safe to turn to port. the lighting is there. adding one two or dozen lights will not in fact increase an intoxicated operator's ability to read the chart and water and know when it is safe to turn. the minute the operator jumped into the boat and started operating the boat, all aids to navigation became expendable.

lastly, you said 6 deaths, which sounds like a bunch of accidents. false. two accidents both fatal because operating a boat an night while intoxicated usually results in people dying. 2 accidents (really three, one not reported) out of 10000 or so vessels coming in or out at night tells me that what is there is working real well.
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Old 04-25-2019, 10:55 AM
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All good points. Which agency is in charge of marking that channel with nav lights. Seems to me the Coast Guard is in charge. The question becomes why havenít they lit up the channel? How many federal hoops do they have to jump through? There must be a reason why this has not been done. Perhaps someone in the CG can chime in here and answer the question.
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Old 04-25-2019, 11:16 AM
  #232  
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Originally Posted by Limbofish View Post
All good points. Which agency is in charge of marking that channel with nav lights. Seems to me the Coast Guard is in charge. The question becomes why haven’t they lit up the channel? How many federal hoops do they have to jump through? There must be a reason why this has not been done. Perhaps someone in the CG can chime in here and answer the question.
the channel is lit up. why haven't they installed more lights? because they conducted a study after the Fernandez accident and determined that there are sufficient lights and other aids to navigation in the channel and a "problem" does not exist and that more lighting would likely cause more confusion.

https://content.govdelivery.com/acco...letins/1a5f9d6
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Old 04-25-2019, 11:17 AM
  #233  
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What about a compromise- put sticks with radar reflectors on them on the jetty so it is visable at high tide. I would think anyone who wants to outrun their vision at night would have their radar going and see it lit up clear as day.
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Old 04-25-2019, 11:20 AM
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If they were coming from The Grove wouldn't have made more sense to run out of Bear cut and then along the beach? If that was the case, he cleared the south jetty and hit the north one. Who knows, they could have run across and exited south of Cape Florida. It was a very calm night.
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Old 04-25-2019, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by jillybird View Post
Everyone agrees that the boat operator was 100% negligent. I think he was clearly criminally reckless and had he survived, ......Sadly, a large percentage of Miami boaters are intoxicated, stoned, wasted, trashed, drunk, or.....It's remarkable more people aren't chopped up at those places every weekend. So, as responsible citizens, do we just throw up our hands and say "every boater is responsible for his own actions and must take personal responsibility" and leave it at that? And so what if a bunch of operators under the influence keep killing themselves and their passengers? Or do we take reasonable steps to modify KNOWN HAZARDS so that there's a chance that recurring deaths might be avoided.
So, you start with the premise that everyone agree the boat operator was 100% negligent....I can understand why you might make that statement, but it's not true. Further, it's a rush to judgement when an investigation hasn't been completed. I think it's likely, but we don't know yet...

Judging by what I've seen down here, I think you are prob. correct regarding BUI in this area.

To answer your question about "throwing up our hands".... No, we don't "throw up our hands"; nor do we rush to judgement; nor should me make accommodations for the foolish at the detriment of the responsible.... A practice that happens quite often these days...Some tragedy happens and mass hysteria on how to solve it by all the armchair experts demanding action.

Originally Posted by jillybird View Post
The unlighted North Jetty has resulted in 6 deaths since 2016 from the same cause.
You mean two crashes. One, by someone with multiple drugs in his system and likely highly impaired. The other, we'll have to wait for the investigation to know.

Originally Posted by jillybird View Post
There's a reasonable chance that those deaths might have been avoided had there been lighting of some sort on the jetty.
I disagree...In fact, even to make that statement shows you're biased. You can say there is a chance it might have helped, but I wouldn't say likely chance.

And then, what sort of light? Neon flashing? Soft amber light? What would be considered adequate lighting? And, what will happen if lights are placed on the jetty and there is another BUI tragedy? Do we "throw our hands up" then? Or do we light it like a stadium?

Originally Posted by jillybird View Post
Would they have prevented these deaths? Who knows? Would they have caused confusion to a professional mariner coming into port as the Coast Guard fears?

That's completely idiotic.
Why is it idiotic? Because you say so? Because you know better than the USCG? It always tells me something about the poster when they make blanket statements brushing off professionals as idiots, with no facts; simply opinion, and to shut down the position.

Originally Posted by jillybird View Post
Today's Miami Herald calls for lighting on the jetty. The Miami-Dade Mayor calls for lighting on the jetty. Miami-Dade marine patrol has in the past. Sen. Rubio has too. We need to do something. For the sake of this poor kid who lost both his parents, why not try? I'm going to write the Coast Guard, Miami Sector, demanding the installation of lighting. I've had enough.
So, a newspaper, Rubio (Does he even boat?), Mayor, calls for it , so let's just do it...Because we all just love when a tragedy happens and the media and politicians save the day.

Further, why drag the poor child into this? Is this what we teach our young generation today? "Don't worry kid, we'll save everyone from the big-bad jetty that came out of nowhere and took your parents from you"....Why don't we teach our younger generation there are consequences to your actions?

Do you really want to make a change? Seriously, no bullshit? Then fund and enforce the BUI laws and cut this behavior out. You really want to teach our young generation, this kid, that his parents didn't die in vein? Then crack down on improper boating. You started your post stating "the boat operator was 100% negligent"

Then let's be adults and focus on being an example of good behavior.

You write your demand letter... You've inspired me to write my own in support of whatever the USCG thinks is safe and proper for the responsible boaters and not to cower under pressure from the weak minded....

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Old 04-25-2019, 11:57 AM
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Drinking while boating ain't going away, EVER. Light up the hazards, kthxbye.
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Old 04-25-2019, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by billinstuart View Post
So it's the governments responsibility to protect drunks and idiots from themselves? This isn't meant to apply to only ths issue, it's a general statement.
so then lets get rid of traffic lights. and channel markers all together if that's your argument. or even better, get rid of the jetty?

for the life of me I do not understand why you would be against lighting something like this up? why not just put something similar to street lights up? why is this even in the coast guards jurisdiction?
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Old 04-25-2019, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by KeeganL View Post
You're saying that like he was staring at a chart unable to figure out the channel. My understanding is he was coming out of the inlet and then heading North. He obviously wasn't looking at the chart and with deep water in either direction once you pass the jetty he was planning on making a turn once he was clear. He passed the South end of the jetty which is much more obvious visually since it's higher and on the side of the channel he should have been running. He thinks he's in the clear and makes the turn...
I don't think I mentioned "chart" in that post, never inferred he was looking at a chart as he ran the inlet, nor would I expect him to, as he needs to be paying attention to traffic and ATON, which he quite obviously was not.

I WOULD expect him to have studied the chart beforehand and know (local or visitor) that the Q FL red and green buoys (The only such pair in the channel) represent safe water for small boats to turn north.

To the poster who said people who live thousands of miles away have no business commenting. Every coastal area has hazards and challenges far worse than the straight, well marked Government Cut north jetty. Let's not pretend it's special or unique in any way. It's not.
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Last edited by RickC137; 04-26-2019 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 04-25-2019, 12:26 PM
  #239  
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I'm amazed at the number of people saying to "light it up" after it's been noted several times that it is.

If you know how to read the lights and understand what they mean, it is "lit up".

If you don't, don't go out at night. If you're drunk or high, you shouldn't be driving a boat. Not that difficult.
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Old 04-25-2019, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by TonyStark View Post
So, you start with the premise that everyone agree the boat operator was 100% negligent....I can understand why you might make that statement, but it's not true. Further, it's a rush to judgement when an investigation hasn't been completed. I think it's likely, but we don't know yet...

Judging by what I've seen down here, I think you are prob. correct regarding BUI in this area.

To answer your question about "throwing up our hands".... No, we don't "throw up our hands"; nor do we rush to judgement; nor should me make accommodations for the foolish at the detriment of the responsible.... A practice that happens quite often these days...Some tragedy happens and mass hysteria on how to solve it by all the armchair experts demanding action.

You mean two crashes. One, by someone with multiple drugs in his system and likely highly impaired. The other, we'll have to wait for the investigation to know.



I disagree...In fact, even to make that statement shows you're biased. You can say there is a chance it might have helped, but I wouldn't say likely chance.

And then, what sort of light? Neon flashing? Soft amber light? What would be considered adequate lighting? And, what will happen if lights are placed on the jetty and there is another BUI tragedy? Do we "throw our hands up" then? Or do we light it like a stadium?

Why is it idiotic? Because you say so? Because you know better than the USCG? It always tells me something about the poster when they make blanket statements brushing off professionals as idiots, with no facts; simply opinion, and to shut down the position.



So, a newspaper, Rubio (Does he even boat?), Mayor, calls for it , so let's just do it...Because we all just love when a tragedy happens and the media and politicians save the day.

Further, why drag the poor child into this? Is this what we teach our young generation today? "Don't worry kid, we'll save everyone from the big-bad jetty that came out of nowhere and took your parents from you"....Why don't we teach our younger generation there are consequences to your actions?

Do you really want to make a change? Seriously, no bullshit? Then fund and enforce the BUI laws and cut this behavior out. You really want to teach our young generation, this kid, that his parents didn't die in vein? Then crack down on improper boating. You started your post stating "the boat operator was 100% negligent"

Then let's be adults and focus on being an example of good behavior.

You write your demand letter... You've inspired me to write my own in support of whatever the USCG thinks is safe and proper for the responsible boaters and not to cower under pressure from the weak minded....
https://www.businessinsider.com/marc...00-boat-2015-6


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