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Fruit of the poison tree?

Old 03-16-2019, 09:00 AM
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That's a basic rule of obtaining evidence that can be used in court against a defendant.How can a warrant be issued based on false information bear evidence that is legal in court.This isn't meant to be political in any way,simply exploring the legal basis for opening an investigation. Just wondering.

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Old 03-16-2019, 09:04 AM
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A Reminder About Political Posts & Moderation Issues
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:51 AM
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Would seem to me that the question asked is a legal question more so than political although I’m certain some of the folks here will drag it down that path.

I have pondered the op’s question as well. I’ve spent some time in court on legal proceedings from a leo career. The US Attorneys I worked with would look for reasons to toss a case and if a warrant was obtained using eveidence that was known to be false it would be tossed before a judge ever saw the case.
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Old 03-16-2019, 09:56 AM
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When you are dealing with activist judges and prosecutors, all bets are off. They have no interest in actually following the letter or spirit of the law.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:00 AM
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Of course an "activist judge" is any judge who disagrees with you or your interpretation of the law.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by KBH View Post
Of course an "activist judge" is any judge who disagrees with you or your interpretation of the law.
You can't possibly be that blind or ignorant. Well I guess it's possible but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:09 AM
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"Legally obtained" is not always clear cut. Obviously, if it's clear cut violation of Silverthorne, the case would be almost always be thrown out before the trial begins (and/or the prosecutor probably not be stupid enough to charge the defendant). However, I would suspect when a prosecutor is anxious to make the case (for whatever reasons, guilt, pressure, pride), and the waters are murky , they may be willing to try the case, even with the risk of the case being thrown out due to evidence potentially obtained illegally.
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Old 03-16-2019, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by muskamoot View Post
That's a basic rule of obtaining evidence that can be used in court against a defendant.How can a warrant be issued based on false information bear evidence that is legal in court.This isn't meant to be political in any way,simply exploring the legal basis for opening an investigation. Just wondering.
A warrant can not be issued knowingly on false information, when applying for the warrant you have to swear in front of a judge or magistrate that the information you are offering is true and accurate. If a leo or prosecutor knowingly used false information to obtain a warrant, then you have a ton of issues to include perjury and a ton of ethic issues. Now if the leos and prosecutors acted in good faith and executed a warrant and found fruits of a crime, but the original warrant was based on false information, then the defendant will have to conduct tedious and expensive suppression hearings. Tell us the rest of the story Paul Harvey...……………...
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Old 03-16-2019, 11:02 AM
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A warrant is signed by judge who finds probable cause based upon the evidence and facts that were submitted. A Capias is on the other hand can be signed off by state attorney based on evidence submitted..
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Old 03-16-2019, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by fishknut View Post
A warrant can not be issued knowingly on false information, when applying for the warrant you have to swear in front of a judge or magistrate that the information you are offering is true and accurate. If a leo or prosecutor knowingly used false information to obtain a warrant, then you have a ton of issues to include perjury and a ton of ethic issues. Now if the leos and prosecutors acted in good faith and executed a warrant and found fruits of a crime, but the original warrant was based on false information, then the defendant will have to conduct tedious and expensive suppression hearings. Tell us the rest of the story Paul Harvey...……………...

The perfect answer.
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Old 03-16-2019, 05:52 PM
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The loophole is when the cops use illegally collected information to just "get lucky" on a car stop or something.That will never be disclosed anywhere.
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:21 AM
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Originally Posted by fishknut View Post
A warrant can not be issued knowingly on false information, when applying for the warrant you have to swear in front of a judge or magistrate that the information you are offering is true and accurate. If a leo or prosecutor knowingly used false information to obtain a warrant, then you have a ton of issues to include perjury and a ton of ethic issues. Now if the leos and prosecutors acted in good faith and executed a warrant and found fruits of a crime, but the original warrant was based on false information, then the defendant will have to conduct tedious and expensive suppression hearings. Tell us the rest of the story Paul Harvey...……………...
Is this why "process crimes" seem to be so popular recently.How can one side rely on lies to obtain warrants to search and seize,but the ones being targeted be charged for lying to authorities? Seem as if the judicial system has become divorced from basic protections afforded by the constitution.I suppose this is what happens eventually when the checks and balances get pushed to the rear and law enforcement gets weaponized by one side or the other.
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Old 03-17-2019, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by KBH View Post
Of course an "activist judge" is any judge who disagrees with you or your interpretation of the law.
100% false. An activist judge applies judgement basis on his own personal opinion ignoring the spirit of the law.
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Old 03-17-2019, 10:59 AM
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While a warrant is supposed to be issued using clear concise and not manipulated information but it does and has happen.. Officer lied to judge in chambers, no real repercussions to the officer. It happens, not often but it does.

This is the kind of shit that just pisses me off. I hate manipulation of the law and the rules.. I wish I could throw every dirty cop in jail, yes I have some personal experience..I am not talking a cop that is rude or lazy but those manipulating facts or creating facts and suppressing exculpatory evidence.. There are innocent men in jail convicted on bad evidence or hardly any evidence, Once you have experienced this travesty of justice it changes your life forever.

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Old 03-17-2019, 12:57 PM
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What difference does it make if false information bears evidence that is legal in court, or if said evidence would be found inadmissible, if the defendant pleads guilty as charged?

This isn't meant to be political in any way,simply exploring the legal basis for pleading guilty as charged.
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Old 03-17-2019, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by muskamoot View Post
Is this why "process crimes" seem to be so popular recently.How can one side rely on lies to obtain warrants to search and seize,but the ones being targeted be charged for lying to authorities? Seem as if the judicial system has become divorced from basic protections afforded by the constitution.I suppose this is what happens eventually when the checks and balances get pushed to the rear and law enforcement gets weaponized by one side or the other.
Ill be honest even after 19 years I had to look up "process crimes", because imo it is not as evident as a lot of people think. I know of two guys who lied to obtain warrants, our agency along with the state attorney agreed to a deal allowing both to resign, which was a cost benefit decision. I don't agree with it, but our SA cuts some really bad deals to keep the paperwork flowing. Some guys get caught up with catching the bad guys, they have lost their way. I will say the two cases I referenced, both suspects were dirty as hell and eventually with patience and good police work would have been crucified.
As Cracker said dirty cops don't belong, I would not tolerate it. I believe in what I do and enjoy helping people, sorry about your apparent experience.
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Old 03-17-2019, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Grunts N Grits View Post
What difference does it make if false information bears evidence that is legal in court, or if said evidence would be found inadmissible, if the defendant pleads guilty as charged?
The reason IS because it is illegal and against the rules..

Example..I was at a house serving a civil levy to seize a car. The high end car was in the back yard with 2 other high end cars under covers with no tags. Yes there was something VERY WRONG AND VERY SUSPICIOUS going on BUT I could not use a a civil order as a means to start snooping without a warrant on the other vehicles that were not part of the seizure paperwork...It is against the rules..
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Old 03-17-2019, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Grunts N Grits View Post
What difference does it make if false information bears evidence that is legal in court, or if said evidence would be found inadmissible, if the defendant pleads guilty as charged?

This isn't meant to be political in any way,simply exploring the legal basis for pleading guilty as charged.
Because it violates the 4th amendment. If an enemy of yours told a judge you had kiddie porn and a warrant was sworn out and the cops executed the warrant and found personal usage amount of marijuana (still illegal in most states) you would be arrested and charged because anything illegal discovered during the search is fair game. One thing to keep in mind is when executing a warrant you may only search where the item you are looking for may be discovered. In other words if you are looking for an elephant you may NOT look in a kitchen drawer.
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Old 03-17-2019, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TUNEE View Post
100% false. An activist judge applies judgement basis on his own personal opinion ignoring the spirit of the law.
Your opinion of what an "activist Judge" is, is highly and strongly related to your opinion. which in 50% of the cases is probably wrong.
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Old 03-17-2019, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
The reason IS because it is illegal and against the rules..

Example..I was at a house serving a civil levy to seize a car. The high end car was in the back yard with 2 other high end cars under covers with no tags. Yes there was something VERY WRONG AND VERY SUSPICIOUS going on BUT I could not use a a civil order as a means to start snooping without a warrant on the other vehicles that were not part of the seizure paperwork...It is against the rules..
It is clear you are one of the good guys but I always wonder about the story of someone who gets stopped for a minor traffic beef and they find a box of bogus credit cards in the trunk. Why were they looking in the trunk?
I have to think they were working on a tip, legal or not.
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