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-   -   Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed (https://www.thehulltruth.com/dockside-chat/994334-boeing-737-max-stupidly-designed.html)

Kendall 03-15-2019 08:28 AM

Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed
 
Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed in my opinion. Although I am not a Pilot or an Aerospace Engineer, I am a frequent flyer who has spent more time flying in commercial aircraft than driving in an automobile. Therefore, like most of you, I have a vested interest in stupidly designed commercial aircraft, especially if this is the prime model of future commercial aircraft being delivered by the largest jetliner manufacturer in the world. In fact there are over 5000 orders by airline companies worldwide of this model and only 350 or 7 % have been delivered. Despite only initial orders being placed into service, there have been 2 major crashes despite good weather and both with a similar flight crash pattern soon after takeoff.

Boeing 737 MAX aircraft have engines installed higher and further forward than previous 737 models. This caused an upward pitching moment. In order to pass Part 25 certification requirements, Boeing installed the MCAS, which automatically applies nose-down trim when the aircraft is in steep turns or in low-speed, flaps-retracted flight. When the angle of attack exceeds a limit that depends on airspeed and altitude, the system activates without notice to the pilot. The system is deactivated when a pilot trims the aircraft using a switch on the yoke. The system is sensitive to failure of angle-of-attack sensors mounted outside the aircraft.

MCAS is Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System is a feature on Boeing 737 MAX aircraft intended to prevent stalls in flaps-retracted, low-speed, nose-up flight. The MCAS uses airspeed and other sensor data to compute when a dangerous condition has developed and then trims the aircraft nose down.

Can you believe that this MCAS system activates without notice to the pilot? MCAS trims the aircraft nose down when activated even without notice to the pilot. Hmmm. Both of the 2 major crashes nosed down shortly after takeoff and then catastrophically crashed.

I personally would not want me or my family to fly in a Boeing 737 MAX until they correct this stupidly designed flaw which is responsible for 346 human lives lost and 2 major airline crashes in its first few months of extensive use.

km1125 03-15-2019 08:57 AM

Maybe there should be a warning, similar to a stall warning, before the MCAS system makes any changes. However, if I understand correctly, you can turn the system off and fly manually whenever you need to.

Doesn't mean the plan is designed "stupidly". It's just a feature that might have unintended consequences if an inexperienced crew is flying. We still don't know if either of these situations had ANYTHING to do with MCAS and even some of the witness information from Ethiopia seems to indicate something else was happening on the plane just prior to it crashing (debris falling from plane, plane making very unusual noises, etc). Need more info from the data recorders to even see if there is anything remotely related to a control issue.

Gary M 03-15-2019 08:59 AM

So, you are now certain that MCAS was the cause of this accident? You are certain that the Eithiopian 737 was in the flight envelope where MCAS might activate?

You know that it can quickly be turned OFF don't you?

You know that most normally trained pilots would NEVER get into the flight envelope where this would kick in don't you?

You know that the OTHER pilot would say something to the flying pilot well BEFORE the plane would activate the MCAS don't you? "Hey, watch your bank angle." "Hey, watch your pitch attitude."

Now, if some low time pilot whips the nose up and cranks in a steep turn and MCAS kicks in and both guys don't recognize what the jet is doing, there could be trouble.

There is NO normal flight envelope that calls for the nose to be high and to be in a steep turn. Never.

Now, IF the MCAS input data that will activate this is erroneous, then that will need to be fixed. But again, it can be turned OFF if the pilots have been trained properly.

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...em-mcas-jt610/

Let's see what the FDR and CVR have to say, then carefully analyze the Data...........

cheeseman 03-15-2019 09:01 AM

My guess is that Boeing knows what is wrong with the plane, and they will work diligently to get it fixed. Their future is riding on how they handle this crisis. Think how Tylenol handled the poisoning issue in the 80's. Since they are grounded you don't have to worry about flying in one till they get them fixed.

YeOldeStonecat 03-15-2019 09:01 AM

It's an old airframe design..they just keep upgrading "generations" of it. Time for a TOTAL wipe the slate clean and design a new bird.
This old bird...the new engines are too much for it, and not optimally located on her.

Problem is Boeing has too many lined up for sales. AIn't gonna stop, and wipe the slate clean with an all new design. They'll just put more duct tape on this old design.

mitchk 03-15-2019 09:02 AM

If the aircraft acts to protect itself in an automated way or even detects an impeding situation, it should notify the aircrew of what it detects and give them an option of opting out. Sensors fail and unanticipated conditions happen.

bjm9818 03-15-2019 09:07 AM

If the two flights were a AA and United flight I would be concerned. Ethiopian Air I’ll wait a few weeks for them to get most of the initial info before rushing to judgement.

RogerMurdock 03-15-2019 09:08 AM


Originally Posted by Kendall (Post 12337692)
Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed in my opinion. Although I am not a Pilot or an Aerospace Engineer,

that was as far as I needed to read...

aubv 03-15-2019 09:09 AM

Stupid post would be a better title...

lobsdiver1 03-15-2019 09:10 AM

This thread reminds me of ďthe cop acted stupidly ď with no first hand knowledge of the facts or results of the full investigation. Will see what the official findings and corrective actions are before Condeming a whole new variant of fuel efficient aircraft.

jobowker 03-15-2019 09:10 AM

From what I've read, the 4th gen 737's were aiming for a 15% efficiency increase. They redesigned the tail, the winglets, and added more efficient engines. The newer engines are about 10 inches wider, so they were moved forward a little and the landing gear was raised eight inches to maintain the same amount of clearance. So they didn't arbitrarily move them forward and up to make the thing unstable - they moved them a little to accommodate larger openings.

This looks (to an ignoramus like me) to be more of a case unintended consequences based on pilots being unaware of the new stabilization system, paired with the system making bad decisions based on erroneous sensor data.

Kendall 03-15-2019 09:11 AM


Originally Posted by mitchk (Post 12337830)
If the aircraft acts to protect itself in an automated way or even detects an impeding situation, it should notify the aircrew of what it detects and give them an option of opting out. Sensors fail and unanticipated conditions happen.


Agree and hopefully this will be part of the fix.

jobowker 03-15-2019 09:12 AM


Originally Posted by bjm9818 (Post 12337848)
If the two flights were a AA and United flight I would be concerned. Ethiopian Air Iíll wait a few weeks for them to get most of the initial info before rushing to judgement.

What's wrong with you? We ALWAYS rush to judgement here!! :)
Don't be so level headed!

km1125 03-15-2019 09:16 AM


Originally Posted by cheeseman (Post 12337827)
My guess is that Boeing knows what is wrong with the plane, and they will work diligently to get it fixed. Their future is riding on how they handle this crisis. Think how Tylenol handled the poisoning issue in the 80's. Since they are grounded you don't have to worry about flying in one till they get them fixed.

That makes the assumption that there is indeed something wrong with the plane. That's not necessarily true, at least with any of the data at-hand. Boeing could make changes to the plane to make it BETTER ABLE to avoid situations or more tolerant of ill-trained or ill-experience crew though.

Kendall 03-15-2019 09:17 AM


Originally Posted by Gary M (Post 12337822)
So, you are now certain that MCAS was the cause of this accident? You are certain that the Eithiopian 737 was in the flight envelope where MCAS might activate?

Reply to above: No.

You know that it can quickly be turned OFF don't you?

Reply to above: Yes.



You know that most normally trained pilots would NEVER get into the flight envelope where this would kick in don't you?


Reply to above: No, but two pilots and their co-pilots MAY have.



You know that the OTHER pilot would say something to the flying pilot well BEFORE the plane would activate the MCAS don't you? "Hey, watch your bank angle." "Hey, watch your pitch attitude."


Reply to above: No, but makes sense if they were attentive and experienced.




Now, if some low time pilot whips the nose up and cranks in a steep turn and MCAS kicks in and both guys don't recognize what the jet is doing, there could be trouble.


Reply to above: Yes, and they should at least have a audible and visual warning that MCAS has been activated, in my opinion.



There is NO normal flight envelope that calls for the nose to be high and to be in a steep turn. Never.Now, IF the MCAS input data that will activate this is erroneous, then that will need to be fixed. But again, it can be turned OFF if the pilots have been trained properly.


Reply to above: A possibility that this happened.



https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-s...em-mcas-jt610/

Let's see what the FDR and CVR have to say, then carefully analyze the Data...........

Reply to above: Agree


Sorry my responses are embedded in your quote.

TorFed 03-15-2019 09:22 AM


Originally Posted by Kendall (Post 12337692)
Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed in my opinion. Although I am not a Pilot or an Aerospace Engineer, .

I'll take the word of my friends who ARE pilots, that this is not a plane or design issue. It is a lack of experience/training issue.

aFORDable 03-15-2019 09:30 AM


Originally Posted by TorFed (Post 12337919)
I'll take the word of my friends who ARE pilots, that this is not a plane or design issue. It is a lack of experience/training issue.

Looks like this might be the answer. Kind of gets more and more confusing.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/flight-ma...100005538.html

NCSUboater 03-15-2019 09:35 AM

A relative is an engineer for Boeing. I'll let them know there are some fantastic aerospace engineers right here on ThT that have already figured out the issue.


lobsdiver1 03-15-2019 09:40 AM


Originally Posted by NCSUboater (Post 12337958)
A relative is an engineer for Boeing. I'll let them know there are some fantastic aerospace engineers right here on ThT that have already figured out the issue.

donít forget to ask for part of the referral award if they choose to hire some of our members.

Lorne Greene 03-15-2019 09:44 AM


Originally Posted by bjm9818 (Post 12337848)
If the two flights were a AA and United flight I would be concerned. Ethiopian Air Iíll wait a few weeks for them to get most of the initial info before rushing to judgement.

I am intrigued by this comment. Why would you be more concerned if it was American and United rather than Ethiopian?


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