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Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed

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Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed

Old 03-15-2019, 09:49 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by NCSUboater View Post
A relative is an engineer for Boeing. I'll let them know there are some fantastic aerospace engineers right here on ThT that have already figured out the issue.
I mean, did you really expect anything different. We have already cured cancer and created world peace 100 times over.

Originally Posted by Lorne Greene View Post
I am intrigued by this comment. Why would you be more concerned if it was American and United rather than Ethiopian?
Because they are American companies and their pilots are trained here and to our standards. Ethiopian are not, and apparently their level of training and experience needed doesn't nearly match ours.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:53 AM
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It appears from reports that the First Officer had 200 hours total time. If this turns out to be accurate then he was of no help to the pilot that day. Very sad.
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Old 03-15-2019, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Lorne Greene View Post
I am intrigued by this comment. Why would you be more concerned if it was American and United rather than Ethiopian?
Many go under the assumption that in poorer countries, their pilots may not be trained to the same standards. One was Ethiopian and the other Indonesian.

He's saying he would be more worried if it was American and United, meaning two different carriers, both with highly-trained American pilots. There's a chance that Ethiopia does have the same level of training.

He's not saying he doesn't care about dead Ethiopians, or their lives are any less important.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by TorFed View Post
I mean, did you really expect anything different. We have already cured cancer and created world peace 100 times over.



Because they are American companies and their pilots are trained here and to our standards. Ethiopian are not, and apparently their level of training and experience needed doesn't nearly match ours.
I really doubt the bank would have lent them money on aircraft if their training was not up to standard and I really doubt Boeing would sell them aircraft without requiring training. They have 108 aircraft in their fleet with only two, now one of them being 737-MAX.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by lobsdiver1 View Post

don’t forget to ask for part of the referral award if they choose to hire some of our members.
Oh absolutely!

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Old 03-15-2019, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Kendall View Post
Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed in my opinion. Although I am not a Pilot or an Aerospace Engineer, I am a frequent flyer...
I'm curious - do you think that because you've spent some time in the back end of some aircraft that your opinion is somehow more relevant/important/valid than those who design and fly them, even though you yourself have no actual experience in designing and flying any aircraft, much less this one specific type?
SMDH. Well, I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Lorne Greene View Post
I really doubt the bank would have lent them money on aircraft if their training was not up to standard and I really doubt Boeing would sell them aircraft without requiring training. They have 108 aircraft in their fleet with only two, now one of them being 737-MAX.
Lorne- We were discussing this in another forum on THT and there was some good info provided on the training requirements of different countries/agencies . check it out. Buy Boeing Airlines Stock

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Old 03-15-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Lorne Greene View Post
I really doubt the bank would have lent them money on aircraft if their training was not up to standard and I really doubt Boeing would sell them aircraft without requiring training. They have 108 aircraft in their fleet with only two, now one of them being 737-MAX.
There is no international standard. Ethiopian laws and standards are different than US. The co-pilot did not have enough hours to be a co-pilot here.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by flat broke View Post
It appears from reports that the First Officer had 200 hours total time. If this turns out to be accurate then he was of no help to the pilot that day. Very sad.
This for the Ethiopian flight. In the US, 200 hour pilots can't even put air in the tires. Sully commented on this today.

As to Lion Air, that's indicating a maintenance issue where a sensor was bypassed or incorrectly replaced.

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Old 03-15-2019, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverGraphite View Post
I'm curious - do you think that because you've spent some time in the back end of some aircraft that your opinion is somehow more relevant/important/valid than those who design and fly them, even though you yourself have no actual experience in designing and flying any aircraft, much less this one specific type?
SMDH. Well, I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions.
My thoughts exactly. I drink a lot of beer but that doesn't make me a master brewer...
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:37 AM
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I didn't realize Boeing was forced to invent MCAS just to get thru certification.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:41 AM
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I have a feeling this is going to be a 50/50 thing. A poor design feature and poor training/cockpit management.

Captain C.B. Sully Sullenberger
18 hours agoWe do not yet know what caused the tragic crash of Ethiopian 302 that sadly claimed the lives of all passengers and crew, though there are many similarities between this flight and Lion Air 610, in which the design of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 is a factor. It has been obvious since the Lion Air crash that a redesign of the 737 MAX 8 has been urgently needed, yet has still not been done, and the announced proposed fixes do not go far enough. I feel sure that the Ethiopian crew would have tried to do everything they were able to do to avoid the accident. It has been reported that the first officer on that flight had only 200 hours of flight experience, a small fraction of the minimum in the U.S., and an absurdly low amount for someone in the cockpit of a jet airliner. We do not yet know what challenges the pilots faced or what they were able to do, but everyone who is entrusted with the lives of passengers and crew by being in a pilot seat of an airliner must be armed with the knowledge, skill, experience, and judgment to be able to handle the unexpected and be the absolute master of the aircraft and all its systems, and of the situation. A cockpit crew must be a team of experts, not a captain and an apprentice. In extreme emergencies, when there is not time for discussion or for the captain to direct every action of the first officer, pilots must be able to intuitively know what to do to work together. They must be able to collaborate wordlessly. Someone with only 200 hours would not know how to do that or even to do that. Someone with that low amount of time would have only flown in a closely supervised, sterile training environment, not the challenging and often ambiguous real world of operational flying, would likely never have experienced a serious aircraft malfunction, would have seen only one cycle of the seasons of the year as a pilot, one spring with gusty crosswinds, one summer of thunderstorms. If they had learned to fly in a fair-weather clime, they might not even have flown in a cloud. Airlines have a corporate obligation not to put pilots in that position of great responsibility before they are able to be fully ready. While we don’t know what role, if any, pilot experience played in this most recent tragedy, it should always remain a top priority at every airline. Everyone who flies depends upon it
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:51 AM
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Fwiw listen to his comments about run away trim (not limited to 737 MAX) and power trim switches.

Sorry in advance if the interjection of facts offends anyone.

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2019/03/1...ax-safety.html

.

Last edited by aubv; 03-15-2019 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:53 AM
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After watching many hours of Air Disasters, I have come to the conclusion that some countries have a better airline safety record than others. I am in the camp that attributes the accidents to a lack of proper training and stick time mixed in with the quirky MCAS software. I would hope that all the airlines who are employing the services of the 737Max, are requiring substantial simulator time to get used to the new characteristics of the plane. I have read that the MAX series is a lot different from the regular 737's that to an extent could have been a new plane designation 738 or whatever. I would think that the pilots stepping up to this new plane from a regular 737 would have to get x-hours simulator time to get use to the new plane.
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Old 03-15-2019, 10:58 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Lorne Greene View Post
I have a feeling this is going to be a 50/50 thing. A poor design feature and poor training/cockpit management.

Captain C.B. Sully Sullenberger
18 hours agoWe do not yet know what caused the tragic crash of Ethiopian 302 that sadly claimed the lives of all passengers and crew, though there are many similarities between this flight and Lion Air 610, in which the design of the Boeing 737 MAX 8 is a factor. It has been obvious since the Lion Air crash that a redesign of the 737 MAX 8 has been urgently needed, yet has still not been done, and the announced proposed fixes do not go far enough. I feel sure that the Ethiopian crew would have tried to do everything they were able to do to avoid the accident. It has been reported that the first officer on that flight had only 200 hours of flight experience, a small fraction of the minimum in the U.S., and an absurdly low amount for someone in the cockpit of a jet airliner. We do not yet know what challenges the pilots faced or what they were able to do, but everyone who is entrusted with the lives of passengers and crew by being in a pilot seat of an airliner must be armed with the knowledge, skill, experience, and judgment to be able to handle the unexpected and be the absolute master of the aircraft and all its systems, and of the situation. A cockpit crew must be a team of experts, not a captain and an apprentice. In extreme emergencies, when there is not time for discussion or for the captain to direct every action of the first officer, pilots must be able to intuitively know what to do to work together. They must be able to collaborate wordlessly. Someone with only 200 hours would not know how to do that or even to do that. Someone with that low amount of time would have only flown in a closely supervised, sterile training environment, not the challenging and often ambiguous real world of operational flying, would likely never have experienced a serious aircraft malfunction, would have seen only one cycle of the seasons of the year as a pilot, one spring with gusty crosswinds, one summer of thunderstorms. If they had learned to fly in a fair-weather clime, they might not even have flown in a cloud. Airlines have a corporate obligation not to put pilots in that position of great responsibility before they are able to be fully ready. While we don’t know what role, if any, pilot experience played in this most recent tragedy, it should always remain a top priority at every airline. Everyone who flies depends upon it
US it is minimum 1500 hours for commercial pilot. I thought it was the second who had 200 hours. I didn't realize it was the first.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:04 AM
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One of my clients is a Human Factors consultant who specializes in commercial aviation disasters. It's amazing how long it takes to determine the "exact" cause. Give this some time. 100's of defendents in a case like this.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:14 AM
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Slack expressed curiosity about the potential for more layers of automation on the planes, underneath the MCAS. Being a certified pilot himself, he noted:“Experienced pilots are great at disengaging automation. MCAS seemed to be somewhat difficult to disable [the automated flight assistance]. There may be some sort of background stability augmentation system, which is causing additional issues.

”Above quote was copied from zerohedge article.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:38 AM
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Straight off Ethiopian Airlines website for pilot training. Scan down to the last few paragraphs.....

Pilot Training - Ethiopian Airlines
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by GulfC View Post
Straight off Ethiopian Airlines website for pilot training. Scan down to the last few paragraphs.....

Pilot Training - Ethiopian Airlines
I know who I'm not flying.

"We provide MPL training for an airline based on its own operating procedures. The graduates can perform as a co-pilot on any multi-engine multi-crew airliner without the need to go through extensive light aircraft experience, as the students are specially trained for the specific aircraft until they prove to be competent in all possible operational scenarios."



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