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Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed

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Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed

Old 05-06-2019, 04:48 PM
  #361  
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Again, Boeing changes the parameters from .6 degree to about 2.5. That’s a major design change. I still stand by my thought that a software change, at this point, is not going to save the current design. It will be detrimental to the company...
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Old 05-06-2019, 07:13 PM
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The trim system is supposed to only be active when hand flying the aircraft to make it handle like the older 737's. It was also mandated by the FAA to keep the type cert. The 737 max is by no means an unstable aircraft. There is nothing wrong with the current design. I can certainly hand it to you that there may have been a major oversight in the training required for the new plane with the mcas system.

The Ethipian crash, as mentioned many times before was bad pilots not being able to deal with the problem. They actually did deal with the problem, but completely forgot to pull back the throttles. That one mistake was why the plane crashed, had they pulled the throttles back they would have eventually been able to manually trim. The fault does not fully lie with Boeing.

Also, the one thing everyone is avoiding. Why have two, brand new AOA sensors sent erroneous data?
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Old 05-07-2019, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by TurboJoe View Post
The trim system is supposed to only be active when hand flying the aircraft to make it handle like the older 737's. It was also mandated by the FAA to keep the type cert. The 737 max is by no means an unstable aircraft. There is nothing wrong with the current design. I can certainly hand it to you that there may have been a major oversight in the training required for the new plane with the mcas system.

The Ethipian crash, as mentioned many times before was bad pilots not being able to deal with the problem. They actually did deal with the problem, but completely forgot to pull back the throttles. That one mistake was why the plane crashed, had they pulled the throttles back they would have eventually been able to manually trim. The fault does not fully lie with Boeing.

Also, the one thing everyone is avoiding. Why have two, brand new AOA sensors sent erroneous data?
They didn't deal with the problem early enough. They let it get out of hand before reacting. They did not compensate for that automatic trim down with an equivalent manual electric trim up, so each time there was an application of automatic trim down it got progressively worse. Then they shut off the cutoff trim switches which also disabled their ability to use electric trim to try and compensate. There's no indication if they tried to use the manual trim wheels to get the trim back to neutral (or somewhere close to it.

The throttle setting may have also caused Mach tuck contribute to the problem. The switched off electric trim but still had the throttles "pinned". As their speed increased the lift would have moved further aft on the wing surfaces causing the nose to pitch down, regardless of MCAS or anything else intentionally pushing it down. (Again, all this is based on the preliminary FDR data that was released. I'm sure much more detail will be available as the investigation continues)
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:31 AM
  #364  
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With throttles pinned and airspeed off the chart, the manual trim wheels would have been useless. Too much aero load on stab to use the wheels. But electric trim would still work and over ride MCAS. Once you get stab trim right, then put trim in cut out. That was not done in both cases.

MCAS was flawed and in both crashes put the pilots in a bad situation. But in both cases the pilots responded poorly.

Whether MCAS or some other fault causes runaway trim, the pilots are (or should be) capable of responding. Runaway stab trim recovery has been part of pilot training for the entire existence of the 737.

Boeing screwed up with MCAS. But the pilots screwed up too.
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Old 05-07-2019, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Corndog38 View Post
With throttles pinned and airspeed off the chart, the manual trim wheels would have been useless. Too much aero load on stab to use the wheels. But electric trim would still work and over ride MCAS. Once you get stab trim right, then put trim in cut out. That was not done in both cases.

MCAS was flawed and in both crashes put the pilots in a bad situation. But in both cases the pilots responded poorly.

Whether MCAS or some other fault causes runaway trim, the pilots are (or should be) capable of responding. Runaway stab trim recovery has been part of pilot training for the entire existence of the 737.

Boeing screwed up with MCAS. But the pilots screwed up too.
I wonder if they record where MCAS was activated to prevent a stall? If the plane didn't crash because of the stall, we would never know about it. It would be interesting to know if this data was ever captured or recorded and if having that system active on a plane has ever prevented the exact situations it was designed for.

I wouldn't say they screwed up with MCAS, but they may have been able to make it even better and potentially tolerate pilot inaction.

A single wire fault could have created the same situations for both airplanes, and in both situations could have been prevented by early activation of the cut-off switches. In the first instance, you could make the argument that it wasn't forefront in the pilot's minds when the trim started acting "on it's own", but there's NO excuse for the Ethiopian crash. The news about Lion Air had been out for months and anyone operating any plane, especially 737s, should have thought about the cutoff switches in any non-commanded trim situation.
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Old 06-19-2019, 07:19 AM
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https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...adaches-pilots

seems I read this somewhere before...
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Old 06-19-2019, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by schoolsout1 View Post
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...adaches-pilots

seems I read this somewhere before...
Terrible headline. What is zerohedge anyway?

Boeing's Newest Problem: Pilots Are Too Weak To Use The Cockpit Hand-Crank

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Old 06-19-2019, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenny Powers View Post
Terrible headline. What is zerohedge anyway?
Click the link...read the missive. There is a link that references what the headline is about from the WSJ...
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Old 06-19-2019, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by schoolsout1 View Post
Click the link...read the missive. There is a link that references what the headline is about from the WSJ...
I just don't like how it's trying to call pilots "too weak" when we may be talking about control forces in the hundreds of foot-pounds. I would've preferred "aircraft control forces too high" as opposed to "pilots too weak"
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Old 06-19-2019, 10:06 AM
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There is a procedure in the manual to unload the horiz stab so it can be manually trimmed. Nothing new here.

Helps also to not leave the throttles at takeoff power and overspeed the aircraft.
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Old 06-19-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenny Powers View Post
I just don't like how it's trying to call pilots "too weak" when we may be talking about control forces in the hundreds of foot-pounds. I would've preferred "aircraft control forces too high" as opposed to "pilots too weak"
Could be "too weak" or "too stupid" in the evolution of pilots over the lifetime of that airframe.

Although I haven't seen any studies yet, it is possible that the current crop of pilots are much less physically able to manually operate some of the controls. Could be partly due to the increasing female corps within the pilot ranks, it could be the aging of the average pilot, or it could be that less and less physical requirements are there to keep the pilots in shape.

The "too stupid" comment is regarding flying with the throttles at full take-off setting which allowed one of the last planes to exceed max speed which also would have made the controls surfaces nearly impossible to manually control. Pulling back on the throttles not only would have given them more time to figure out the issue, but also allow for much less effort to manually resolve the trim problem.

Last edited by km1125; 06-19-2019 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 06-19-2019, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Kenny Powers View Post
I just don't like how it's trying to call pilots "too weak" when we may be talking about control forces in the hundreds of foot-pounds. I would've preferred "aircraft control forces too high" as opposed to "pilots too weak"
And that is what Boeing was alluding to...which means the design of this plane may, afterall (as I have read), a poor design.
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Old 06-19-2019, 10:15 AM
  #373  
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I thought this was posted a few weeks back, but I must have read about it elsewhere

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/23/busin...ion/index.html

Atlanta (CNN Business)The spokesman for American Airlines' pilots union called Boeing's insinuation that foreign pilots were to blame for the crashes involving 737 MAX jets "inexcusable" and said AA pilots made several suggestions to Boeing to fix the 737 MAX's systems before the second plane crash.
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Old 06-19-2019, 04:00 PM
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Thank God someone from the THT brain trust chimed in. Who cares that he isn't a pilot or an engineer? I'll bet he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express one time. Jeez.
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Old 06-20-2019, 02:44 AM
  #375  
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
Could be "too weak" or "too stupid" in the evolution of pilots over the lifetime of that airframe.

Although I haven't seen any studies yet, it is possible that the current crop of pilots are much less physically able to manually operate some of the controls. Could be partly due to the increasing female corps within the pilot ranks, it could be the aging of the average pilot, or it could be that less and less physical requirements are there to keep the pilots in shape.

The "too stupid" comment is regarding flying with the throttles at full take-off setting which allowed one of the last planes to exceed max speed which also would have made the controls surfaces nearly impossible to manually control. Pulling back on the throttles not only would have given them more time to figure out the issue, but also allow for much less effort to manually resolve the trim problem.
I think Sully summer it up pretty well yesterday
Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2019
Captain “Sully” Sullenberger:
“We shouldn't be blaming dead pilots.
We need to do more than that. Asking whether this was pilot error or design error doesn't really address the right question because Human Performance is a variable and it is situation dependent,


We must make accurate assumptions about what's possible in extreme emergencies given the distraction of the workload.


We shouldn't expect pilots to have to compensate for flawed designs.”

“It needs to be a priority of every airplane manufacturer, and of every airline to provide pilots and flight attendants with all the information that they need to operate their equipment safely… to understand it.
As complexity increases, it makes resilience harder without the proper knowledge.”
“Over many years pilots have been given less and less detailed information, especially the documentation, the manuals, that we have access to, even online.


So it becomes harder and harder for those of us who really want to understand, in a deep way, exactly how these machines operate, where the surprises are, where the dark corners are, where the counter-intuitive features are that might bite us…”
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Old 06-20-2019, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Classic25 View Post
I think Sully summer it up pretty well yesterday
Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2019
Captain “Sully” Sullenberger:
“We shouldn't be blaming dead pilots.
We need to do more than that. Asking whether this was pilot error or design error doesn't really address the right question because Human Performance is a variable and it is situation dependent,

We must make accurate assumptions about what's possible in extreme emergencies given the distraction of the workload.

We shouldn't expect pilots to have to compensate for flawed designs.”

“It needs to be a priority of every airplane manufacturer, and of every airline to provide pilots and flight attendants with all the information that they need to operate their equipment safely… to understand it.
As complexity increases, it makes resilience harder without the proper knowledge.”
“Over many years pilots have been given less and less detailed information, especially the documentation, the manuals, that we have access to, even online.


So it becomes harder and harder for those of us who really want to understand, in a deep way, exactly how these machines operate, where the surprises are, where the dark corners are, where the counter-intuitive features are that might bite us…”
While I generally agree with what Sully said, we have and should continue to blame dead pilots when the evidence says they were a key contributor or cause of the planes' demise. To do otherwise is just putting your head in the sand. That's just being truthful and factual. It's also truthful and factual to identify anything else that contributed to the planes' demise and to see if there's anything we can do to improve. That's how we've improved aviation safety from the beginning. The planes will never be perfect or we wouldn't even need pilots. Pilots won't always be perfect either but with training and minimum requirements we can improve there too.

Pilots have complained for DECADES about getting "TOO MUCH INFORMATION" and "INFORMATION OVERLOAD" that impeded their ability to fly the plane. Manufacturers struggle with trying to remove as much of that as possible while still providing as much as they can. It's a complex job and a tough call to make because for all those routine flights there is way, way too much information available. Yet, when something happens just which information is necessary and required for the pilots to understand the situation without getting inundated with all the rest?
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Old 06-20-2019, 05:29 AM
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I guess the people who run IAG must be idiots...
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Old 06-20-2019, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Classic25 View Post



So it becomes harder and harder for those of us who really want to understand, in a deep way, exactly how these machines operate, where the surprises are, where the dark corners are, where the counter-intuitive features are that might bite us…”
So why didn't pilots, that were flying the same type of aircraft that had a major published crash not 6 months prior, not know about MCAS? It had been widely public knowledge before that, wouldn't industry insiders be talking about it constantly? Wouldn't every lunch conversation be oh you're flying the 737 max, watch out for that MCAS.

While it is clear the aircraft put the pilots in a bad spot, I still blame the pilots on the second crash. Not caring enough to know recent history about the type they are flying, not pulling throttles back ever, etc. Clearly many pilots don't care to learn anything more than necessary.
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Old 06-20-2019, 05:00 PM
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The first officer on the Ethiopian flight had less than 200 hours total time as a pilot.
Are you guys 737 pilots? Is that enough experience to be fit for the job?
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Old 06-20-2019, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by TurboJoe View Post
So why didn't pilots, that were flying the same type of aircraft that had a major published crash not 6 months prior, not know about MCAS? It had been widely public knowledge before that, wouldn't industry insiders be talking about it constantly? Wouldn't every lunch conversation be oh you're flying the 737 max, watch out for that MCAS.

While it is clear the aircraft put the pilots in a bad spot, I still blame the pilots on the second crash. Not caring enough to know recent history about the type they are flying, not pulling throttles back ever, etc. Clearly many pilots don't care to learn anything more than necessary.
The ideal with two pilots is one flies the plane and the other troubleshoots the problem. With a first officer that wet behind the ears the pilot was trying to do both and failed.
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