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Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed

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Boeing 737 MAX is stupidly designed

Old 03-21-2019, 08:49 PM
  #201  
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I am a retired pilot and accident investigator. I appreciate the input from those in the field and especially those type rated.
The rest of us should just relax and take in the analysis.

Prayers up for the families of those lost and for those assigned to ensure the accident does not happen again.
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Old 03-22-2019, 05:48 AM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by ProppedUp View Post
To a couple of your points......
Thanks!

Originally Posted by ProppedUp View Post
This sums up what is being parroted.... again

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/...yuRZW3X4HOG3CU
He makes some great points... here's a couple:
" Graves said the Ethiopian government has an incentive to protect the reputation of its government-owned airline, and that worries him when it comes to fact-finding.
“It’s their crown jewel,” Graves said. “They are being very, very careful on who gets to see the data.” "

“That’s what I’m concerned about … some of these countries are trying to get pilots in the pipeline so fast that they’re teaching them to fly computers” and not providing adequate real-world aviation training, Graves said. “There’s no doubt that technology has made aviation safer, but you’ve got to wonder … technology … does it correct pilot deficiencies, or is it creating pilot deficiencies?”
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:13 AM
  #203  
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
Thanks!



He makes some great points... here's a couple:
" Graves said the Ethiopian government has an incentive to protect the reputation of its government-owned airline, and that worries him when it comes to fact-finding.
“It’s their crown jewel,” Graves said. “They are being very, very careful on who gets to see the data.” "

“That’s what I’m concerned about … some of these countries are trying to get pilots in the pipeline so fast that they’re teaching them to fly computers” and not providing adequate real-world aviation training, Graves said. “There’s no doubt that technology has made aviation safer, but you’ve got to wonder … technology … does it correct pilot deficiencies, or is it creating pilot deficiencies?”
Read an article from fox news on the first day the American investigators had an issue with the French.

"Meanwhile, the Ethiopian Airlines’ black boxes that were delivered Thursday to a French air accident investigation authority, known by its French acronym BEA, have yet to be opened or examined, a source who spoke to American investigators told Fox News.

American investigators left the facility after arguments broke out over how the protocols for examination, custody and cooperation among the investigators, laid out in the UN’s International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) section 13, were being ignored, the source said."


Source

https://www.foxnews.com/world/ethiop...ne-report-says

So it doesn't look like the French wanna play nice with their own UN rules. Shocker.

They are just pissed they are having to shut down that hidious looking boondoggle of a thing that goes up in the air called a A380.
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Old 03-23-2019, 09:33 PM
  #204  
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Boeing released instructional video on how to stop MCAS...

https://www.facebook.com/atcmemesoff...0627580452291/
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Old 03-24-2019, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ProppedUp View Post
Boeing released instructional video on how to stop MCAS...

https://www.facebook.com/atcmemesoff...0627580452291/
That's great!

Do you actually see the trim wheel rolling when there's any kind of auto trim going on? Seems like if it did, that would be a pretty obvious signal to those flying the plane.
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Old 03-24-2019, 01:07 PM
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
That's great!

Do you actually see the trim wheel rolling when there's any kind of auto trim going on? Seems like if it did, that would be a pretty obvious signal to those flying the plane.
You not only see it just like that you hear it. It's obvious as hell.

Probably can't hear it over the stick shaker though.
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Old 03-24-2019, 07:19 PM
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So there's a "rather difficult" process to disable the MCAS system. Period. I'm no engineer and I'm sure I will get flamed from engineers who are watching this but WHY does this system not respond like a cruise control system in a car? AKA when you touch the stick ALL auto systems shut off?! Seems like a no brainer to me?! All of this talk about the process to disable the system is just fine if the pilots were aware of the system working in the background and possessed the proper training to turn it off when they were able to identify that it was the problem!

Boeing engineers messed up on this MCAS system IMHO.
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Old 03-24-2019, 08:47 PM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
Don't pilots also review the logs from the previous flights or maintenance actions before they take a particular plane on a flight?
Yes, most pilots getting on a plane for the first time that day, usually look back a few days in the logbook to see what other Capts have written up. When a crew has a 'problem' during a flight,they are supposed to write up the issue in the ACFT Logbook. Once that is in writing, that issue MUST be addressed by Maintenance. On the day before the Lion crash, the guy in the jumpseat (on the 737 it is right behind the center console so a guy there has an outstanding and better view of 'the big picture' that the two pilots do), is the guy who advised the crew to place the Stab Trim Cutout switches in the OFF position.

Maybe they all were in a hurry to go home, go to the layover hotel bar, try to score with the hot new F/A, who cares. But maybe the MCAS acting up that day was, for some reason, not written up. So, nobody the next day was aware that it was acting up the day before. The ACFT logbook would have gone to the bottom of the sea after that crash and the pages destroyed.

I'm assuming that this late model 737 would have some sort of Auto Reporting for mechanical 'issues' but if so, that may have to be downloaded from the plane on a sort of regular basis. Please clarify this if somebody knows about this...........
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Old 03-24-2019, 11:44 PM
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Default $80k warning light now standard on max.

Sounds like the light would of speeded up the process of sorting things out... crazy it wasn't standard.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-...r-malfunction/
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Old 03-25-2019, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by MUHSFINK07 View Post
So there's a "rather difficult" process to disable the MCAS system. Period. I'm no engineer and I'm sure I will get flamed from engineers who are watching this but WHY does this system not respond like a cruise control system in a car? AKA when you touch the stick ALL auto systems shut off?! Seems like a no brainer to me?! All of this talk about the process to disable the system is just fine if the pilots were aware of the system working in the background and possessed the proper training to turn it off when they were able to identify that it was the problem!

Boeing engineers messed up on this MCAS system IMHO.
"Rather difficult"??? Where do you get that?? There are two switches within reach by either of the guys sitting up front, and are supposed to be used for any problems with any of the automatic trim systems.

Originally Posted by Gary M View Post
Yes, most pilots getting on a plane for the first time that day, usually look back a few days in the logbook to see what other Capts have written up. When a crew has a 'problem' during a flight,they are supposed to write up the issue in the ACFT Logbook. Once that is in writing, that issue MUST be addressed by Maintenance. On the day before the Lion crash, the guy in the jumpseat (on the 737 it is right behind the center console so a guy there has an outstanding and better view of 'the big picture' that the two pilots do), is the guy who advised the crew to place the Stab Trim Cutout switches in the OFF position.

Maybe they all were in a hurry to go home, go to the layover hotel bar, try to score with the hot new F/A, who cares. But maybe the MCAS acting up that day was, for some reason, not written up. So, nobody the next day was aware that it was acting up the day before. The ACFT logbook would have gone to the bottom of the sea after that crash and the pages destroyed.

I'm assuming that this late model 737 would have some sort of Auto Reporting for mechanical 'issues' but if so, that may have to be downloaded from the plane on a sort of regular basis. Please clarify this if somebody knows about this...........
Agree. I did not see the details of how they determined the info from the day-before flight. Did the pilot come forward or was it already in their records somewhere? Seems like that info would be good to know and would lead to some culpability in the incident.
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Old 03-25-2019, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by MUHSFINK07 View Post
So there's a "rather difficult" process to disable the MCAS system. Period. I'm no engineer and I'm sure I will get flamed from engineers who are watching this but WHY does this system not respond like a cruise control system in a car? AKA when you touch the stick ALL auto systems shut off?! Seems like a no brainer to me?! All of this talk about the process to disable the system is just fine if the pilots were aware of the system working in the background and possessed the proper training to turn it off when they were able to identify that it was the problem!

Boeing engineers messed up on this MCAS system IMHO.
Drivers on cars barely need to know the rules of the road to drive a car. Airliners require trained staff to sit in the front seats. You are constantly trimming a plane and having a few systems help take care of that takes a processing load off the pilots. If they constantly had to reset the auto trim after every time they touched the stick you're just adding MORE tasks to their load.
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Old 03-25-2019, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
"Rather difficult"??? Where do you get that?? There are two switches within reach by either of the guys sitting up front, and are supposed to be used for any problems with any of the automatic trim systems.

It requires more than just flipping switches. After you have cut out the stab trim with the switches, you still need to pull out the handle and manually turn the trim wheel (it takes multiple turns to move the stab from full nose down). This could take 5 to 10 seconds. Not a lot of time if you are 1000' high with the nose pointed at the ground.
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by cdrhoek View Post
It requires more than just flipping switches. After you have cut out the stab trim with the switches, you still need to pull out the handle and manually turn the trim wheel (it takes multiple turns to move the stab from full nose down). This could take 5 to 10 seconds. Not a lot of time if you are 1000' high with the nose pointed at the ground.

Yes, THIS. Check out pilot mentour on youtube he has a few videos explaining this and it is not simply flipping two switches...
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Old 03-25-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by MUHSFINK07 View Post
Yes, THIS. Check out pilot mentour on youtube he has a few videos explaining this and it is not simply flipping two switches...
Well, it is. Because once those switches are flipped, (before the trim has more authority than the elevators), pilot flying can keep the plane level while the copilot does the trim.
So to stop the thing that pushed the plane into the ground is two little switches. To regain better control after that certainly takes more time. However, from Mentour's video it's very obvious right away when the trim is doing something it shouldn't.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by cdrhoek View Post
It requires more than just flipping switches. After you have cut out the stab trim with the switches, you still need to pull out the handle and manually turn the trim wheel (it takes multiple turns to move the stab from full nose down). This could take 5 to 10 seconds. Not a lot of time if you are 1000' high with the nose pointed at the ground.
If the nose is pointed to the ground you've probably waited too long to start troubleshooting the issue.
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Old 03-25-2019, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by TurboJoe View Post
Well, it is. Because once those switches are flipped, (before the trim has more authority than the elevators), pilot flying can keep the plane level while the copilot does the trim.
So to stop the thing that pushed the plane into the ground is two little switches. To regain better control after that certainly takes more time. However, from Mentour's video it's very obvious right away when the trim is doing something it shouldn't.

That is not a 737 max simulator. The MCAS failure cannot be accurately simulated on a 700 simulator because the system does not exist on a 700. They also did not have the stick shaker going the entire time. The noise of the stick shaker would have masked the sound of the trim wheel moving. It is easy to sit in a simulator knowing something is coming and show what a great pilot you are. Try it with the stick shaker going off and full down stab trim that cannot be overcome by the yoke, all while you are only a few thousand feet high. Training and a better warning system would have helped, but this is not a simple situation resolved by just throwing a couple of switches.

"An accident investigation is 100 experts that have 6 months to explain why 2 pilots that had 10 seconds were wrong"
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Old 03-25-2019, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by cdrhoek View Post
That is not a 737 max simulator. The MCAS failure cannot be accurately simulated on a 700 simulator because the system does not exist on a 700. They also did not have the stick shaker going the entire time. The noise of the stick shaker would have masked the sound of the trim wheel moving. It is easy to sit in a simulator knowing something is coming and show what a great pilot you are. Try it with the stick shaker going off and full down stab trim that cannot be overcome by the yoke, all while you are only a few thousand feet high. Training and a better warning system would have helped, but this is not a simple situation resolved by just throwing a couple of switches.

"An accident investigation is 100 experts that have 6 months to explain why 2 pilots that had 10 seconds were wrong"
I 100% agree with you on all counts, with respect to lion air. But, how 6 months after a fatal crash of the same type, with widely reported causes and AD's does an air crew faced with a plane aiming itself into the ground not be intimately familiar with the MCAS system? I mean are there any pilots of 737's out there that see a crash and say meh... doesn't apply to me?
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Old 03-25-2019, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by cdrhoek View Post
That is not a 737 max simulator. The MCAS failure cannot be accurately simulated on a 700 simulator because the system does not exist on a 700. They also did not have the stick shaker going the entire time. The noise of the stick shaker would have masked the sound of the trim wheel moving. It is easy to sit in a simulator knowing something is coming and show what a great pilot you are. Try it with the stick shaker going off and full down stab trim that cannot be overcome by the yoke, all while you are only a few thousand feet high. Training and a better warning system would have helped, but this is not a simple situation resolved by just throwing a couple of switches.

"An accident investigation is 100 experts that have 6 months to explain why 2 pilots that had 10 seconds were wrong"
You need to stop commenting on this issue. You are one of the people making people dumber every post you write on this issue.

FYI he fought the trim for over 6 min. not 10 sec.

But please just stop.
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Old 03-25-2019, 01:52 PM
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Wow, I didn't realize you were the arbiter of all things 737. I never said they only had 10 seconds. Most pilots would recognize that quote (that's why it was in quotation marks) regarding accident investigations and Monday morning quarterbacking.
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Old 03-26-2019, 08:10 AM
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This article says that the Lion Air pilots cycled the cut-off switches more than two dozen times before they crashed. It's not really clear in the article what else a pilot has to do after switching the cut-off switches to disable MCAS though, just saying that it buys them more time to control the plane by doing so.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/b...ion-error.html
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