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Buying Organic foods from the grocery

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Buying Organic foods from the grocery

Old 02-14-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Drako View Post
Dictionaries are not a good source of defintions because that's not what they are for (they are for telling you what the word means).
You will have to clarify your original question then. You asked "what is the definition of organic". What does definition mean to you? I had to look in a dictionary to find what exaclty "definition" means. It says a definition is "a statement of the exact meaning of a word." So, essentially when you asked "what is the the definition of organic", what you were asking is "what is the meaning of organic?" So I posted the "meaning" of organic, which is the same as the definition of organic.

You are obviously talking in circles, I'm just not sure why. What are you trying to say?
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Turtle9343 View Post
You will have to clarify your original question then.
By a proper definiton I mean a test that I can apply to something and get back an unambiguous answer as to whether that something fits the definition or not. I would also like that definition/test to be useful.

I can't apply the dictionary's definition to a particular apple and decide whether it's organic or not -- it is too vague and imprecise.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Drako View Post
Why should I care? If they graphs they show are wrong, say that they are wrong. If the graphs are correct, it does not matter who published them.



I agree. What I'm pushing against is the idea that eating organic will make a significant difference to your health and longevity, other things (like diet composition, etc.) being equal. I don't think that's true.
That particular little puff piece you quote only shows one side of the story.

Yes, the number of "managed hives" have remained relatively steady. That is only part of the story.

For the past several years, there have been fairly significant hive losses up to 30% - especially in the winter. I've lost 5 hives last year, 4 hives the year before. Surveys of beekeepers up and down the eastern seaboard show the same thing.

Now, what the story doesn't show is that we beekeepers replace those lost hives by either splitting existing hives and rearing new queens or more commonly buying starter sets from southern states like Georgia. In other words, the overall number of hives has remained the same but the number replaced has not. The number we've had to replace is declining over the years. That's the only part of the story he got right. Although he doesn't show it's increased for 2017 and likely 2018.

The consensus on why we're losing hives is complex and due to a number of factors probably including: indiscriminate use of insecticides at the wrong time, varroa mites, monocultures of corn, soybean, etc. so that bees don't have a steady supply of nectar when they need it, variable weather patterns (last year the spring locust bloom was nil because of a late frost and the fall nectar was crap because of an exceedingly dry fall), etc. I also lost a few hives because there was an extended period of warm weather in the winter (unusual) which led to them becoming active and depleting their honey stores too early.

So as I say, the story is never as simple as Mr. Jon Entine writes and is typical of these pseudo-science pieces for which the author knows jack-shit about the subject in question and typically cherry-picks a limited data-set that "proves" his theory while ignoring the rest of the data.

Ask your neighbor beekeepers if they're losing hives. Fairly certain they will tell you a different story than this piece.

And yes, I agree that the evidence is inconclusive that organically grown products have more nutritional value than conventionally grown products. Maybe. I'd also point out that most of the studies only look at a limited number of nutrients and plant compounds. It's expensive to run these studies and there are a ton of compounds present that we know very little about. Sometimes compounds in trace amounts can be beneficial. Sometimes not.

That's not why I tend to choose organic. I tend to buy local. It's usually organic or sustainably grown. And it's usually a small family operation. Supporting my neighbors is important to me. It might not be to you. I know what it takes to grow things organically. It's a terrible business model and you won't make much $ at it. Unless of course someone skirts the rules . That's bs.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by stimpson.j.cat View Post
That's not why I tend to choose organic. I tend to buy local. It's usually organic or sustainably grown. And it's usually a small family operation. Supporting my neighbors is important to me. It might not be to you.
That's a reason for organic that I can understand. Supporting neighbors.
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Old 02-14-2019, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by stimpson.j.cat View Post
So as I say, the story is never as simple
For sure, but you're reading too much into my post -- it was meant to be a simple "no, we're not having a beepocalypse, here's some data" response. I didn't even read the story, I linked it purely for the graphs showing managed honeybees are fine.

Originally Posted by stimpson.j.cat View Post
It's expensive to run these studies and there are a ton of compounds present that we know very little about. Sometimes compounds in trace amounts can be beneficial. Sometimes not.
I don't know about expensive. Running RCTs on humans is very expensive and complicated, but I've been thinking mostly about just doing full biochemical analysis on, say, a bunch of conventional apples and a bunch of organic apples. You may not be able to tell what the differences will lead to, but you will be able to tell what the differences *are*. And, as far as I know, the differences are very minimal. My guess is that anything you do to say, adjust the ratios of fruits/veggies/meat/carbs/etc. in your diet is going to have a much bigger effect that switching from conventional fruits/veggies to organic ones.

As to buying local, I don't have time to drive around small farms buying their produce (not that there are many around me to start with) and farmers markets here are quite unreliable and not that good either.
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Old 02-14-2019, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Drako View Post
And, as far as I know, the differences are very minimal. My guess is that anything you do to say, adjust the ratios of fruits/veggies/meat/carbs/etc. in your diet is going to have a much bigger effect that switching from conventional fruits/veggies to organic ones.
this is precisely what is said at the end of the few studies that do show slightly higher nutrition levels in organic produce.
I was told by a certain someone here that it was "my opinion", when in fact I was merely reciting what the doctors and scientists conclude after seeing the overall differences between organic and non-organic.

Eat a healthy diet. Period. Organic or not will not be the difference between dying at 70 or dying at 100.
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Old 02-14-2019, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Drako View Post
Why, let's go read: https://www.acsh.org/news/2018/04/17...eres-why-12851

In any case, honeybees are a managed species, like livestock. Do you worry that cows will go extinct? They might, but only if humans have no longer any use for them.
If you were working with bees and watching how much they struggle now vs even just 20 years ago you would be concerned. Bees just don't seem as ';tough' as they used to be. Yes we manage them, but if more and more hives start failing before they produce commercial volumes of honey there will be a lot of people not bothering to manage them any more. Bees may not go extinct, but we already need more than we have to get high levels of pollination. If cows stopped producing milk and beef we would be down to survival numbers in no time.
I like to read these articles, but when they don't line up with first hand real world experience, you just wonder about the politics behind them. As I said before, no one knows for sure what is going on, but do you just continue on arguing about it while the bees get weaker, or do you change something to really find out what we can do to help. There are plenty of other studies around saying how exposure to various pesticides affects the gut lining etc on bees and makes them less hardy and disease resistant. There are studies about how the pesticide residues collect in the honey (makes perfect sense). That weakening and reduction in 'hardyness' is exactly what we observe in the field, so this is the argument that lines up with observed reality. The arguments that say nothing is wrong don't fit with reality so who do you believe?
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Old 02-14-2019, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream View Post
Congrats smart buying guys. I am 76** years young, no scripts, doctor just told me after hospital tests "you have the heart of a 21 year old".

Perfect blood pressure all my life, low pulse rate(relaxed), etc. thanks to vegan diet, mostly organic food, very little dairy products, soy meats, only natural meat is WILD caught Alaskan salmon, no farm raised seafood of any kind allowed. No shell fish due to cholesterol and gout.

Don't get caught up with "it's too late", it's not.]
How are you a vegan and eat dairy and eat meat???
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Drako View Post
Why, yes, I wouldn't. In fact, I make this very choice every time I do into a grocery store and buy conventional tomatoes instead of organic ones in the next aisle.

I pick tomatoes on the basis of flavor (note: it's really hard to find good tomatoes in US groceries), not on the basis of them having an organic label or not.

You are 100%correct that it is almost impossible to get good tasting tomatoes in the store that aren't organic or better.

Taste of organic or better produce is FAR better, so you can use that rationale alone in your case for or against organic.

Of course someone like Coores 14 will totally dispute my claim in ignorance because they have not compared the two products. Then some have boldly stated there is NO difference in the taste, to which I say bs, unless they ate some of that rare fraudulent organic produce but there is.some fraud in everything in life, so do we.throw the baby out with the nasty bathwater, Heaven forbid!!!!
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
You were making a pretty good case until you drove off that cliff.

While I did ask for opinions, I'd have hoped they were based on some research that drove your opinion. I'd even accept "just because I want to" as a valid opinion so long as the person recognizes that it's just a 'feel good' action based on what information they may have been exposed to, which might just be advertising or just casual conversations with family or friends.

So you make all your decisions based on research or possible mistakes by listening to hype.

Then your research better be very independent, not federal, not educational, not medical, not lobbyist driven, because they are ALL tainted by agenda, money(cash), profit, grants, on and on even politics too.

So you too are the skeptic who went a step further and asked who else here are skeptical?
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Double tyme View Post

it's 100% overhyped. I agree. Saw "organic" Capri sun at Costco the other day. People are so stupid they will mistakenly think the organic label automatically makes something that's trash not trash.

I also think it's common sense to an extent. if I have a tomato in one hand that was grown organically, and a tomato in the other hand that's been genetically modified and sprayed with all sorts of chemicals throughout its growth cycle, you're telling me you honestly wouldn't care which one I feed you? Or which one I feed your kid?

Im not making a carte Blanche statemement that eating everything organic is worth the extra money, but i absolutely would choose organic over non organic ten out of ten times if all else is equal.


So what PROOF do u have that Capri Sun does not have an organic version of their drink????

Are you going to be another doubter skeptic just because you HEARD there are some fraud organic labelers out there, and go far enough to call Capri Sun fraudulent because of hearsay and following weak fake news????
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Old 02-14-2019, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by coores14 View Post


the gmo tomato would actually reduce the use of pesticides and would potentially be more nutritious depending on what the gene modifications were done for. Usually they’re done to make them more resistant to disease and infestation, hence the less pesticides needed. But theoretically they can be modified to be “More healthy”.

So if I had a tomato dripping in pesticides versus one that has been washed, that’s pretty common sense. The gmo thing makes zero difference to me and in fact, I’d push for the gmo one every time.

Your key word is REDUCE the use of pesticides.

I believe the info on GMO is made for MORE product per acre, as someone has already stated here, and to say THEORETICALLY GMO COULD be modified to be more healthy is beyond words for a stretch to encourage someone to buy GMO rather than organic IMO.
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by CzecheredPast View Post
Long ago someone figured out that if you scare enough people....put them in fear of their lives in a non-direct way. You can make a lot of money. Sugar is bad for you.....here buy this saccharin I invented.....few years later....we are banning saccharin due to it health concerns.....buy NutraSweet (Aspartame) it is much healthier.....then NutraSweet is linked to dementia....buy Splenda instead......and round and round we go.

The real deal no one knows the exact key that equates to a long life.....or a sound mind throughout that long life. But they will make you think they do just to sell you some crap.

Same BS....different scare tactics. My grandparents all lived to their late 90s. My mom is 96 sharp as a tack and still going, my dad died at 91. As others have said and I am a believer as well...longevity is more related to DNA than anything else. If I make it to my mid to late 80's, I will be fine with that as most people I know past that age see a sharp reduction in health and quality of life.

Of course Coores14 likes your post, you played his song all the way.

Saccharin. Aspartame, and Splenda all ARE better than sugar IF you consider cancer less harmful than diabetes, stroke, and heart attacks. So which are more likely to occur and which are most deadly????

I personally would take my chances on cancer, but it is SCIENTIFIC fact that non pesticide or very low pesticide food along with organic soil treatment, AND natural ssupplemental food(vitamins and minerals and herbs) combined will lower your risk of all the above from 50 to 70% or more, depending on what so called scientific research or study you choose.

You said sell you CRAP, do you consider organic food crap???? If you do then you have shown your ignorance of organic food.

What scare tactics have organic producers engaged in????

All I hear them saying is you can have a better lifestyle and longer life, they leave the scare side to the individual, and their competitors, or skeptics like you and Coores.

Very clear, if one has no interest in the promises then stay clear, but you don't need to go on a s mear campaign to wreak havoc on those who do want the promises, and test for themselves.

You say mid to late 80's is ok for you because you believe after that age people have a sharp reduction in health and lifestyle.

One question, how many people do you know who waited until their 80"s to have deteriorated health and lifestyle????

I would say taking two or more prescriptions regularly is high deterioration. Most people in their 70:s are taking from 3-15 or 20 prescriptions, ask any medical professional, my wife works with many.

So bottom line, how much risk should we take in order tto save a few bucks on groceries to cut the prescriptions by 50% or more when adding supplements.

This site of all places should not be talk about saving a little on food costs, when we constantly talk about boats $60-100K as routine purchases.

How can a high end boat be more important than high end food????

Bayliner vs. Contender sound familiar????
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Old 02-14-2019, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by dgiles View Post
How are you a vegan and eat dairy and eat meat???

I should have said vegetarian, sorry, but vegetarian does allow SOME wild caught fish.

As to dairy, I do cheat a little on certified USDA cheese and certified organic milk occasionally.

I stated earlier nothing is perfect, probably no vegans are perfect either. The few I know admit they are not perfect with it, but yes vegan is far more stringent than vegetarian.

Have to give my 76 year brain a little slack maybe, not much though.

Almost 2:00 AM and still thinking and typing pretty good though.

Last edited by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream; 02-14-2019 at 10:56 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 02-15-2019, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream View Post
So you make all your decisions based on research or possible mistakes by listening to hype.

Then your research better be very independent, not federal, not educational, not medical, not lobbyist driven, because they are ALL tainted by agenda, money(cash), profit, grants, on and on even politics too.

So you too are the skeptic who went a step further and asked who else here are skeptical?
The one thing I try and do is consider the source when looking at any information. "Fan boys" get immediately discounted to a degree... although not totally ignored. They may have some very good input but with the extent of the bias it's hard to sort through to pick out what's useful.

I am definitely the skeptic. I'm sure there are some products out there that really comply with the "organic" intent, but I'm getting more and more convinced that most of the "organic" labels are for marketing and revenue than they are for actual "organic" benefits.

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Old 02-15-2019, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by sharktripper View Post
The only organic product I actually believe in is milk. It lasts weeks longer than “regular” milk.

Trader Joe organic milk has short (soon) sell by dates
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Old 02-15-2019, 06:12 AM
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Egg marketing and some milk marketing is also deceptive- look at the "friendly cow and we love our chickens, and we are a family farm ads. Nothing to do with the product.
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Old 02-15-2019, 06:14 AM
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I just read the thread titled "Fat THT'ers". Several members posted the advantage of changing diet related to carbs.

Their "feeling much better" posts mimic those of organic food users also, now if they would just take the next step to organic and natural supplements, they could even feel much better yet. Therefore, we have our best reason for organics, living better healthy rather than just living and getting by health wise until we die.

THAT experience is worth far more than money for me anyway.

I had my 'big money' experience in the 80's, and it does not come close to the experience of healthy living IMO.

So for you guys chasing the big bucks at the e xpense of your health as I did, I contracted Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and was told "there is NO cure", to whictoh I said no way. I went directly to the health food stores and purchased books to start my regiment in 1993(25 years) .

First week of all veggies and much water lost 10 pounds and saved tons on my groceries(yes organic is cheaper than meat and sugar snacks and soft drinks). I wadrinking a 12 pack of diet Dr. Pepper a wee, plus a 12 pack of Coors light a wee, plus at least 2 gallons of sweet tea a week at lunch and dinner.

If you guys take inventory you are probably in that category or close or even worse., especially if you are burning the midnight oil working.

Got to go, will post more later.
I
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Old 02-15-2019, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
The one thing I try and do is consider the source when looking at any information. "Fan boys" get immediately discounted to a degree... although not totally ignored. They may have some very good input but with the extent of the bias it's hard to sort through to pick out what's useful.

I am definitely the skeptic. I'm sure there are some products out there that really comply with the "organic" intent, but I'm getting more and more convinced that most of the "organic" labels are for marketing and revenue than they are for actual "organic" benefits.

Explain WHAT convinced you PLEASE, that is the purpose of discussion, to find correct answers if possible.
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Old 02-15-2019, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by edwardh1 View Post
Trader Joe organic milk has short (soon) sell by dates

Another case of misinformation, no preservatives necessitate shorter shelf life, part of the extra cost is some disposal of food due to faster spoilage without preservatives.
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