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Buying Organic foods from the grocery

Old 02-18-2019, 01:29 PM
  #221  
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Originally Posted by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream View Post
This thread is intended to clear confusion , not add to it;. however, it seems spending money on anything other than necessity items and hobbies requires that budget be bare minimal, regardless of importance, to the majority of the population of the US.

This thread once again proves that to be true.

And when challenge comes to that spending, those people defend their decision to the end quite naturally, however possible.
Whoever thinks this thread is clearing confusion is delusional. Present company included. Your grandiose and un-wielding opinions included.
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Old 02-18-2019, 01:29 PM
  #222  
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"I don't understand why you have a problem with blemish free and insect free produce, I thought that is "

Actually I like blemish free. However, it does not happen without pesticides. At least not on such a scale as to feed a nation. I believe the average consumer buying organic or CO labeled food thinks they are buying food that was grown with no pesticides. Which, if so would create a 10x cost. It's just too labor intensive and I mean paying wages that provide the securities most workers have. To be the perceived organic in most people's mind would mean tossing likely half the crop to obtain that blemish free for the market.

I especially like today's sweet corn. You pull the shucks back and the silk practically falls off. No brush, no rag , so easy. No worm on the end of the ear. You can obtain that organically by putting mineral oil on each ear tip...one at a time.

Guineas aid in pest removal as will quail.

Scraping insect eggs off of individual leaves is helpful.

My grandad would have the 11 kids go through the potato rows and pick off the potato bugs and drop them in a can of kerosene.

He told me he once ordered a guaranteed remedy for potato bugs out of a magazine. When the remedy arrived it was two slats of wood on a leather hinge. You were to squash the bugs with them. They got him good, but it would meet their claim.

As far as building soil. It generally requires a cover crop such as clover that will be plowed under. That's expensive and that expensive land is not producing a saleable crop while the cover crop is growing.

As much as wish it would happen, I don't think production farming will ever go back to this.

Maybe this how things will adjust. Food cost will go up like healthcare, subtle pun intended, and many will manage 10 acre plots to feed the nation rather than big farms.
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Old 02-18-2019, 02:31 PM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
I've stayed out of the "taste" part of this discussion because my only noticeable experience was with eggs and I really didn't do a fair comparative test between the 'regular' and 'range-free organic' ones to have a solid opinion.

However, pancakes are different. We have 'organic' pancake mix because it's 'non-GMO' and 'certified USDA organic', but I'll take even Bisquick over that crap any day, as the pancakes from that mix really just taste like you powdered some cardboard and then mixed it with water for the batter. There might be some other 'non-GMO, USDA-certified organic' mix that tastes better, but I haven't had it yet.
That's a fair and valid point.

An organic product doesn't necessarily taste better nor contain any more beneficial nutrients than a non-organic product. It might. I think the eggs my chickens lay taste better than conventional eggs. They have more beta-carotene due to a diet rich in insects and legumes. Or they might taste better because they are fresher and spend less time in transit/storage.

In some cases, the product may perform worse - such as in this case and oftentimes w/ processed food. I suspect it might have to do with additional emulsifiers, leaveners, anti-coagulants, preservatives. Or some organic products may just plain suck and v.v.

The only outcome that one should reasonably expect from a product labeled USDA Organic is that it should be relatively free of pesticides or other synthetically derived compounds. Depending on the label used (4 below), up to 5% of the product may be comprised of a select list of non-organic compounds (see red high-lighted text below). This is mainly to allow for trace adulteration of an otherwise organically grown product - usually because either there is no organic compound available for production, or some part of the processing system uses a non-organic product or because it is difficult to remove foreign material from the final product.

The 4 labels one can use:

100 PERCENT ORGANIC Raw or processed agricultural products in the “100 percent organic” category must meet these criteria:
  • All ingredients must be certified organic.
  • Any processing aids must be organic.
  • Product labels must state the name of the certifying agent on the information panel.
  • May include USDA organic seal and/or 100 percent organic claim.
  • Must identify organic ingredients (e.g., organic dill) or via asterisk or other mark.
ORGANIC Raw or processed agricultural products in the “organic” category must meet these criteria:
  • All agricultural ingredients must be certified organic, except where specified on National List.
  • Non-organic ingredients allowed per National List may be used, up to a combined total of five percent of non-organic content (excluding salt and water).
  • Product labels must state the name of the certifying agent on the information panel.
  • May include USDA organic seal and/or organic claim.
  • Must identify organic ingredients (e.g., organic dill) or via asterisk or other

“MADE WITH” ORGANIC Multi-ingredient agricultural products in the “made with” category must meet these criteria: -
  • At least 70 percent of the product must be certified organic ingredients (excluding salt and water). -
  • Any remaining agricultural products are not required to be organically produced but must be produced without excluded methods (see page 1). -
  • Non-agricultural products must be specifically allowed on the National List. -
  • Product labels must state the name of the certifying agent on the information panel.
  • May state “made with organic (insert up to three ingredients or ingredient categories).”
  • Must not include USDA organic seal anywhere, represent finished product as organic, or state “made with organic ingredients.”
  • Must identify organic ingredients (e.g., organic dill) or via asterisk or other mark.

SPECIFIC ORGANIC INGREDIENTS Multi-ingredient products with less than 70 percent certified organic content (excluding salt and water) don’t need to be certified.
  • Any non-certified product:
  • Must not include USDA organic seal anywhere or the word “organic” on principal display panel.
  • May only list certified organic ingredients as organic in the ingredient list and the percentage of organic ingredients.
  • Remaining ingredients are not required to follow the USDA organic regulations.
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Old 02-18-2019, 02:52 PM
  #224  
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
I've stayed out of the "taste" part of this discussion because my only noticeable experience was with eggs and I really didn't do a fair comparative test between the 'regular' and 'range-free organic' ones to have a solid opinion.

However, pancakes are different. We have 'organic' pancake mix because it's 'non-GMO' and 'certified USDA organic', but I'll take even Bisquick over that crap any day, as the pancakes from that mix really just taste like you powdered some cardboard and then mixed it with water for the batter. There might be some other 'non-GMO, USDA-certified organic' mix that tastes better, but I haven't had it yet.

This example proves several things IMO. First, natural grain without flavor and preservatives should taste like cardboard compared to what Americans are used to eating.

Second, that is why pancakes require butter or syrup for liquidation, and mfrs know people don't want pancakes that taste like cardboard, so they add do called natural flavors which usually are not natural, unless u buy flavored organic food it is bland.

We were talking veggies who have natural flavor IF they are allowed to partially ripen on the vine, and are not grown in soil depleted of minerals and nutrients that also create more taste, this this story goes far beyond taste to nutrition and safety from disease.

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Old 02-18-2019, 03:09 PM
  #225  
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Originally Posted by Finsinchessy View Post
"I don't understand why you have a problem with blemish free and insect free produce, I thought that is "

Actually I like blemish free. However, it does not happen without pesticides. At least not on such a scale as to feed a nation. I believe the average consumer buying organic or CO labeled food thinks they are buying food that was grown with no pesticides. Which, if so would create a 10x cost. It's just too labor intensive and I mean paying wages that provide the securities most workers have. To be the perceived organic in most people's mind would mean tossing likely half the crop to obtain that blemish free for the market.

I especially like today's sweet corn. You pull the shucks back and the silk practically falls off. No brush, no rag , so easy. No worm on the end of the ear. You can obtain that organically by putting mineral oil on each ear tip...one at a time.

Guineas aid in pest removal as will quail.

Scraping insect eggs off of individual leaves is helpful.

My grandad would have the 11 kids go through the potato rows and pick off the potato bugs and drop them in a can of kerosene.

He told me he once ordered a guaranteed remedy for potato bugs out of a magazine. When the remedy arrived it was two slats of wood on a leather hinge. You were to squash the bugs with them. They got him good, but it would meet their claim.

As far as building soil. It generally requires a cover crop such as clover that will be plowed under. That's expensive and that expensive land is not producing a saleable crop while the cover crop is growing.

As much as wish it would happen, I don't think production farming will ever go back to this.

Maybe this how things will adjust. Food cost will go up like healthcare, subtle pun intended, and many will manage 10 acre plots to feed the nation rather than big farms.
You are well educated on farming because of your background, very few are, so they MUST . depend on the USDAannd FDA, which is a shame because they have been proven corrupted by big Corp money and lobbyists.

Mega farmers have also been corrupted IMO to use GMO and over production of their land to make more profit.(some say t o feed the world). Your synopsis of the land situation shows that most likely we will NEVER go back in time as is the case in most subjects.

We need options like most subjects also. Organic food is an option that allows us to have a better option than mega farming. Very simple, until science buffs and scepticism make it complicated.
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Old 02-18-2019, 03:11 PM
  #226  
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Originally Posted by olyveoil View Post
Whoever thinks this thread is clearing confusion is delusional. Present company included. Your grandiose and un-wielding opinions included.

INTENDED was the key word, not is.
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Old 02-18-2019, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by stimpson.j.cat View Post
That's a fair and valid point.

An organic product doesn't necessarily taste better nor contain any more beneficial nutrients than a non-organic product. It might. I think the eggs my chickens lay taste better than conventional eggs. They have more beta-carotene due to a diet rich in insects and legumes. Or they might taste better because they are fresher and spend less time in transit/storage.

In some cases, the product may perform worse - such as in this case and oftentimes w/ processed food. I suspect it might have to do with additional emulsifiers, leaveners, anti-coagulants, preservatives. Or some organic products may just plain suck and v.v.

The only outcome that one should reasonably expect from a product labeled USDA Organic is that it should be relatively free of pesticides or other synthetically derived compounds. Depending on the label used (4 below), up to 5% of the product may be comprised of a select list of non-organic compounds (see red high-lighted text below). This is mainly to allow for trace adulteration of an otherwise organically grown product - usually because either there is no organic compound available for production, or some part of the processing system uses a non-organic product or because it is difficult to remove foreign material from the final product.

The 4 labels one can use:

100 PERCENT ORGANIC Raw or processed agricultural products in the “100 percent organic” category must meet these criteria:
  • All ingredients must be certified organic.
  • Any processing aids must be organic.
  • Product labels must state the name of the certifying agent on the information panel.
  • May include USDA organic seal and/or 100 percent organic claim.
  • Must identify organic ingredients (e.g., organic dill) or via asterisk or other mark.
ORGANIC Raw or processed agricultural products in the “organic” category must meet these criteria:
  • All agricultural ingredients must be certified organic, except where specified on National List.
  • Non-organic ingredients allowed per National List may be used, up to a combined total of five percent of non-organic content (excluding salt and water).
  • Product labels must state the name of the certifying agent on the information panel.
  • May include USDA organic seal and/or organic claim.
  • Must identify organic ingredients (e.g., organic dill) or via asterisk or other

“MADE WITH” ORGANIC Multi-ingredient agricultural products in the “made with” category must meet these criteria: -
  • At least 70 percent of the product must be certified organic ingredients (excluding salt and water). -
  • Any remaining agricultural products are not required to be organically produced but must be produced without excluded methods (see page 1). -
  • Non-agricultural products must be specifically allowed on the National List. -
  • Product labels must state the name of the certifying agent on the information panel.
  • May state “made with organic (insert up to three ingredients or ingredient categories).”
  • Must not include USDA organic seal anywhere, represent finished product as organic, or state “made with organic ingredients.”
  • Must identify organic ingredients (e.g., organic dill) or via asterisk or other mark.

SPECIFIC ORGANIC INGREDIENTS Multi-ingredient products with less than 70 percent certified organic content (excluding salt and water) don’t need to be certified.
  • Any non-certified product:
  • Must not include USDA organic seal anywhere or the word “organic” on principal display panel.
  • May only list certified organic ingredients as organic in the ingredient list and the percentage of organic ingredients.
  • Remaining ingredients are not required to follow the USDA organic regulations.

Thanks Simpson, very good info, probably will lead to more scepticism though from the doubters who demand scientific research concerning those requirements.

Farming is so simple, and knowledge among farmers is very adequate, according to what I have read, so they will decide for us most likely what importance we put on our health, because the govt. has been very unconcerned until recently when they realized they(we) are paying for the poor health of poor Americans , and the elderly via Medicare etc.

I believe that is the reason organic has grown in availability and popularity because our govt. is allowing incentives to make organic more profitable while being more available.
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Old 02-18-2019, 03:44 PM
  #228  
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Grady

Again - I do not disagree with a lot of your points

For reference - it is "skepticism" with a k not a c - only pointing it out as others with disregard as ...

Regards
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Old 02-18-2019, 06:35 PM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream View Post
Thanks Simpson, very good info, probably will lead to more scepticism though from the doubters who demand scientific research concerning those requirements.

Farming is so simple, and knowledge among farmers is very adequate, according to what I have read, so they will decide for us most likely what importance we put on our health, because the govt. has been very unconcerned until recently when they realized they(we) are paying for the poor health of poor Americans , and the elderly via Medicare etc.

I believe that is the reason organic has grown in availability and popularity because our govt. is allowing incentives to make organic more profitable while being more available.



How does the red portion you highlighted surprise you?

Anything in the world that isn't marketed as 100% something never is.

If it isn't 100% organic, of course there are other non organic ingredients. It isn't labeled 100% organic.

Take anything.....

Say Coffee. I can sell 100% Kona all day long for 59.00 a pound. It has to be 100% Kona beans and yes I get checked and yes it would be a major undertaking to cheat. I have track and trace from farm to roaster.

I can take the Kona beans and blend it with 2.00 a pound Honduran beans, put a Kona Blend label on it, sell it all day long for 12.00 more than a standard single origin and it by law only has to contain 10% of the Kona beans.

Same as organics.

Not the fault of the producers that so many consumers are uneducated on what they are buying.
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Old 02-18-2019, 07:47 PM
  #230  
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Was in the store today and saw two bottle of honey with "ORGANIC" labels on them. Looking at those, plus all the other bottles, there was nothing I could tell how those two got to use the "organic" label. They were all "pure honey" in the ingredients.
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Old 02-18-2019, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
Was in the store today and saw two bottle of honey with "ORGANIC" labels on them. Looking at those, plus all the other bottles, there was nothing I could tell how those two got to use the "organic" label. They were all "pure honey" in the ingredients.

I am tired, more tomorrow.

Raw honey is the only highly recommended honey, explain tomorrow.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:11 AM
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Was working with an ag pilot at a tanker base a couple years ago. They fly on wildfires during the season out west and spray crops during the off season in the south. I asked him the difference between spraying an organic field vs regular crop field. One word answer, cash! No pesticide/fertilizer trail.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:24 AM
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Originally Posted by chasvb1 View Post
Was working with an ag pilot at a tanker base a couple years ago. They fly on wildfires during the season out west and spray crops during the off season in the south. I asked him the difference between spraying an organic field vs regular crop field. One word answer, cash! No pesticide/fertilizer trail.
This is a load of bulls***. The pesticides and fertilizers will show up in any quality test of the produce.
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Old 02-19-2019, 05:25 AM
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From my newsfeed this morning:

As with all trends, the pendulum is bound to swing back. Organic may be one of the few health-driven terms to garner a USDA certification, but it is not a guarantee of nutrition or general wellbeing; after all, processed food with high sugar content can be organic. In the early days of organics, consumers may have conflated the two, but today the general public is better informed and understands the distinction.

They are also wary of health claims. Per Mintel, a mere 26 percent of consumers trust organic food labels; worse yet, only 13 percent believe organic foods are highly regulated.


Source:
https://www.qsrmagazine.com/consumer...anic-consumers


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Old 02-19-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Tainui View Post
From my newsfeed this morning:
Interesting. This appears to be more of a marketing article than a health article on the quality of the food. They seem to seal the case when they end with " Aligning those foods with newer, splashier descriptors could drum up more attention. "

When they say " Per Mintel, a mere 26 percent of consumers trust organic food labels; worse yet, only 13 percent believe organic foods are highly regulated. "

Why is that "worse yet", if it's based on factual information? We've seen in this thread that there is quite a difference between something being "certified organic" and just labelled 'organic'. If the 'worse yet' means that the industry hasn't convinced folks that their real organic stuff is OK because it's just labelled 'organic' that might be OK but if the 'worse yet' means that consumers aren't falling for just the 'organic' because some of it really isn't truly organic then that's bad.

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Old 02-19-2019, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream View Post
I am tired, more tomorrow.

Raw honey is the only highly recommended honey, explain tomorrow.
Pure means only one ingredient, not organic or may be organic also. The fact you could not see a difference means they were all processed, or heated for safety reasons for the processor to avoid lawsuits.

Honey bees are amazing, their hives are air conditioned to maintain same temp year round, by the wings of the bees. That is where we received the inspiration for AC. The constant temp keeps bacteria from growing supposedly, so raw honey is reputed to be bacteria free. Some processors still heat raw honey, so read the label for type process if any. It is naturally very dark, heating makes honey clearr, but diminishes the nutrition.(honey bear etc. brands)

Thank you for bringing this info to the thread, good example.

Another good example is the color.of spinach (all the way back to Popeye) being much greener than lettuce. Amount of Color is determined by nutrition in veggies, so darker colored ones and ones with more color are preferred.









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Old 02-19-2019, 05:55 AM
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So, what IS organic honey relative to regular honey?
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
Interesting. This appears to be more of a marketing article than a health article on the quality of the food. They seem to seal the case when they end with " Aligning those foods with newer, splashier descriptors could drum up more attention. "

When they say " Per Mintel, a mere 26 percent of consumers trust organic food labels; worse yet, only 13 percent believe organic foods are highly regulated. "

Why is that "worse yet", if it's based on factual information? We've seen in this thread that there is quite a difference between something being "certified organic" and just labelled 'organic'. If the 'worse yet' means that the industry hasn't convinced folks that their real organic stuff is OK because it's just labelled 'organic' that might be OK but if the 'worse yet' means that consumers aren't falling for just the 'organic' because some of it really isn't truly organic then that's bad.

That site is an "industry" site, of course marketing will be a large part of the site. Reading further on the site their nnews section contained announcement of promotions which included marketing manager positions.

What I gathered most from the article was the percentage of shoppers who had purchased organic food recently was very impressive, far beyond what I would have thought.

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Old 02-19-2019, 06:36 AM
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Originally Posted by olyveoil View Post
So, what IS organic honey relative to regular honey?

I would think the processing requirements as stated, would be the main difference, the reason I became wary of just organic honey having the same appearance of regular honey as the OP did too.

USDA organic hives are probably inspected VERY closely for whatever requirements the USDA place on that label for honey.

I don't have total faith in the USDA system either, but it is the best we have in most grocery stores.


Natural grocery stores carry products that have higher standards than USDA. I don't remember off hand the organic organizations names, but there are several, mostly on the state(CA. for one) level and local level(mostly self governing more rigid than govt. standards.

There is and always will be a small market for quality above profit in food items, and it is growing due to the atrocious health condition of America, especially compared to the rest of the world leading nations.

Compare excessive spending on food to excessive spending on boats and fishing.

Which makes more sense in the long run?

I know the answer. We will have many opinions expressed on that comparison too.

Last edited by Capt Grady 23 Gulfstream; 02-19-2019 at 10:36 AM.
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Old 02-19-2019, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by km1125 View Post
i thought it was established several times in this thread that something just labelled "organic" really doesn't any of the hard requirements that something labelled "certified organic" has. Is that not accurate? Something labelled "organic" MAY be just as good (or even better) than something labelled "certified organic", it's just that the producer never went through all the steps necessary to use the "certified organic" label, but also something labelled "organic" may be just a marketing sticker that holds no penalty is misused.

Accurate or not?
Originally Posted by Mark Y View Post
Exactly and some of them are using a lot of the same pesticides and herbicides that everyone else is using but still labeling it as organic.
Originally Posted by bayrunner16 View Post
How does the red portion you highlighted surprise you?

Anything in the world that isn't marketed as 100% something never is.

If it isn't 100% organic, of course there are other non organic ingredients. It isn't labeled 100% organic.

Take anything.....

Say Coffee. I can sell 100% Kona all day long for 59.00 a pound. It has to be 100% Kona beans and yes I get checked and yes it would be a major undertaking to cheat. I have track and trace from farm to roaster.

I can take the Kona beans and blend it with 2.00 a pound Honduran beans, put a Kona Blend label on it, sell it all day long for 12.00 more than a standard single origin and it by law only has to contain 10% of the Kona beans.

Same as organics.

Not the fault of the producers that so many consumers are uneducated on what they are buying.
I posted the specs of the 4 USDA organic food labels and highlighted that portion as there have been several erroneous posts on what the various labels entail.

100% organic is a high bar to attain. As you note, you have to be 100% sure that everything is organic in your supply/processing chain. Most vendors opt for organic (i.e. at least 95% of the product is organic) as there may be a few items that one uses in processing/production that have synthetic origins. The full list can be found here. Some of those substances include:
  • alcohols (for sanitation)
  • chlorinated materials (again for disinfection/sanitation) of water, edible sprouts, etc.
  • soap-based herbicides
  • mulches
  • newspaper in compost feedstocks
  • elemental sulfur - there is no "organic" equivalent, it's an elemental nutrient and thus organic has no meaning in this context
No product labeled as USDA organic should have been treated with the normal repertoire of insecticides, pesticides, and fungicides or synthetic fertilizer (e.g. nitrogen produced via the Haber-Bosch process) commonly used in conventional ag. production systems. Every producer in the National Organic Program (arm of the USDA responsible for organic regulations) is inspected annually by private certifiers that are contracted by USDA. These inspections can be unannounced and focus on compliance issues. Additionally, 5% of their product is tested for pesticide residue. The certifier chooses which 5% of the product to test - not the producer.

Is it possible that big ag companies skirt the regs? Sure. I doubt it happens a lot with smaller companies. USDA does its best to investigate fraudulent claims. As per usual on any regulatory agency - funds and personnel are never adequate. Here is a report for FY2018 2-NOPQuarterlyEnforcementSummary2018.pdf. There were 548 suspensions and 16 organic licenses revoked. The only thing that bugs me is that the fines for noncompliance or fraud are paltry to say the least.

Lastly, whoever complained that the national organic program is funded by taxpayer dollars is mistaken. There are initiation and annual fees paid by producers to the program. There may be a portion of USDA personnel time used for program oversight but the bulk of the program is designed to be self-sustaining.
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