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Giving Away The Engine Market

Old 10-16-2016, 11:55 AM
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Default Giving Away The Engine Market

<Start Rant>

This one has been bothering me for a long time.

Speaking of the larger sportfishers that hold my interest (and yachts to a lesser extent), if you want to power anything over 65 feet, CAT is not an option. Youí[re stuck with MTU (and their staggering maintenance costs, not to mention their track record on warranty avoidance).

I admit that Iím very prejudiced in that I buy American made every chance I get, being born and raised in the US. That goes for Reels, Rods, etc. That said, why in Godís Green Earth has CAT handed the larger diesel market to MTU?

There are a lot of high HP s/fís 65í+ being splashed (not to mention pleasure yachts), and they all have MTUís. I know CAT has been suffering (and has closed US plants too, thereby putting guys and gals out of work) over the last few years in their commercial construction/mining sales because of cheap competition from China and Korea. However, it seems to me they are letting a prime market go that is right here in the US.

When you have the market cornered for 1900 and under HP diesels (which CAT arguably has), why ignore the rest of the market that requires 2000 HP+, especially when you have a great service matrix in place to take care of them? And CAT has better prices on parts and a much better track record than MTU on warranty claims.

<End Rant>
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Old 10-16-2016, 12:16 PM
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Does Cat send you checks to post this stuff?
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Old 10-16-2016, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Crabcake Tony View Post
<Start Rant>

This one has been bothering me for a long time.

Speaking of the larger sportfishers that hold my interest (and yachts to a lesser extent), if you want to power anything over 65 feet, CAT is not an option. Youí[re stuck with MTU (and their staggering maintenance costs, not to mention their track record on warranty avoidance).

I admit that Iím very prejudiced in that I buy American made every chance I get, being born and raised in the US. That goes for Reels, Rods, etc. That said, why in Godís Green Earth has CAT handed the larger diesel market to MTU?

There are a lot of high HP s/fís 65í+ being splashed (not to mention pleasure yachts), and they all have MTUís. I know CAT has been suffering (and has closed US plants too, thereby putting guys and gals out of work) over the last few years in their commercial construction/mining sales because of cheap competition from China and Korea. However, it seems to me they are letting a prime market go that is right here in the US.

When you have the market cornered for 1900 and under HP diesels (which CAT arguably has), why ignore the rest of the market that requires 2000 HP+, especially when you have a great service matrix in place to take care of them? And CAT has better prices on parts and a much better track record than MTU on warranty claims.

<End Rant>
How many of these boats do you think are sold each year? 1, 10, 100? I doubt it would be more than 100, but I don't know. Maybe there just are not enough of them to be sold to justify the costs, particularly if the base engines are not economical in other applications, as well.
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Old 10-16-2016, 12:36 PM
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Cat makes fantastic engines above the C32/1900, the 35xx and 36xx series, true robust class leading engines. But they are heavier than the MTU and MAN. To compete in the larger SF and yacht market above 2000hp, Cat would need to design a complete new group of engines. MTU and MAN already had lightweight engines in that class, and turbo'd the snot out of them. With mixed results!!

I'm with Cat. Probably not worth it to design a new machine for that small market. Cat sells lots of larger engines with great results, in part because they are built heavy.

Cummins in the same situation with their bigger engines. Great machines, too heavy for go-fasts.
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Old 10-16-2016, 01:13 PM
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I'm with Cat. Probably not worth it to design a new machine for that small market. Cat sells lots of larger engines with great results, in part because they are built heavy.

Caterpillar was ready to go with a new line of pleasure craft marine engine. Years and $$$ spent on ground up engineering and tooling.

C-140 (I think) class motors. First generation putting out 2,750 hp. Sets were ordered and ready to go, I know one hull was jigged and ready for them. Cat management pulled the plug on the project.

Friend of mine was flown up for demo, very impressive motors

Change in upper management put the project on hold. Market considered too small.

Probably a dozen sets in a warehouse somewhere like in Raiders.
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Old 10-17-2016, 05:13 AM
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CAT has scaled back their marine operations substantially(they closed a local plant here a few years ago). I have a friend who works for a local distributor who sells and services CAT equipment...he used to specialize in the marine market, but his job was eliminated and now he's selling generators for them.
The market for those higher-powered engines is exceedingly small and dominated by MAN and MTU; according to my CAT friend, they just didn't see a reason to be in that segment.
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Old 10-17-2016, 11:11 AM
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The market for 65-90 sportfish with 2,000-3000 hp engines is limited to Bertram, Hatteras and Viking plus some custom builders - not more than 60 hulls per year, so even if you were to build all 120 engines, would the set-up costs be worth it?
Keep in mind, what makes that market unique is the need for a fairly low height and light weight design - something not needed in the other uses for similar hp engines.
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Old 10-17-2016, 11:46 AM
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Timely article on the direction of cat.
https://finance.yahoo.com/m/6e34f3c2...s-big-bet.html
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Old 10-18-2016, 04:05 AM
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Please, let the folks at CAT know what they are missing. I am sure after learning of this, that they will jump in to invest many millions in a new factory to take advantage of this once in a lifetime opportunity.
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Old 10-18-2016, 04:59 AM
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Originally Posted by SeaJay View Post
Please, let the folks at CAT know what they are missing. I am sure after learning of this, that they will jump in to invest many millions in a new factory to take advantage of this once in a lifetime opportunity.
They know. Seems unfortunate since the bulk of time money and energy has been spent. I spoke to people from CAT about this last year. They would have liked to see the project continue.

It is not scrapped, just on hold. Bunch of motors already built and ready.
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Old 10-18-2016, 09:56 AM
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Cat also got into a bit of a pickle with fuel systems and emissions. This is just speculation on my part, but seems to fit.

Cat has almost always made their own fuel injection equipment. MTU/MAN/Volvo/other euro machines have historically bought Bosch injection equipment. Cummins for last 20yrs has bought Bosch for their little engines. Bosch made serious advances in common rail and protected those with lots of patents. For Cat to go CR probably would involve buying or licensing Bosch stuff, and other engine builders may have some exclusivity clauses in their contracts with Bosch?????

So to compete with CR, Cat has few options. I think that may be the reason they bought the 8.9 and 12.9 euro engines complete with Bosch CR, and markets them as "Cats". Folks don't really like buying engines with shared heredity, for good reason.

Similar effect on the road tractor market, they abandoned it.

Just can't really see any other reason why Cat is so far behind on getting CR on their engines.....
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Old 10-18-2016, 10:00 AM
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the bigger motors would put the engines at risk, bigger means further travel distance, and putting a CAT that far from dirt is risky at best.
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Old 10-19-2016, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Liquid Lunch View Post
Does Cat send you checks to post this stuff?
Lets see, why would CAT send me a check for fussing about them giving away the market to another manufacturer. Not logical....
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Old 10-19-2016, 01:25 PM
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Thanks to those of you who replied with ***non-sarcastic** reply's guys!

To the snotty guys, put it where the sun don't shine.

Yes, I have well noticed the weight differential between CAT and the MTU high HP.

I follow the various s/f mags and it looks to me besides the big three, there are several larger boats being splashed with high HP MTU's. You also have to factor in what I call teh luxury non-s/f pleasure boats.

The way I look at it, MTU must be making money on their engines, cause they have to ship them over the great pond (which ain't cheap) in order to sell them, If they don't make a profit, on that segment of the product line, they don't stay in business (or at least stick with selling that product line).

Anyway, again thanks for those with constructive comments!
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Old 10-24-2016, 04:02 AM
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I worked for Cats marine division for years and I worked for a dealer in North Carolina. We were sold more marine engines then any other dealer in the US or the world for that matter. I remember when the c-32 Acert came out which my company pushed for 6 months before R-d wanted to. Even back then we were prepping 6-10 pairs of engines a day for various boat builders. The sport fishing world is nothing compared to the dirt moving world and those engine sales are hardly even a blip on the bigger picture of sales. Heck I remember Cat was getting ready to drop the whole pleasure motor program over all the issues they had from the c-32 Acert, crank recall,head recall,gear drive recall, bell housing recall and the list goes on. They are killing MTU in the industrial marine world with there 3500-3600 series engines in tugs. Like I said this was in the hay day of Hatteras yachts having 50 boats being built at the same time from 50' sportys to 80' motor yachts. 1 industrial marine engine cost what a pair of pleasure marine engines cost and there is alot less warrenty payout on them because they are proven and been around for along time.
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Old 10-24-2016, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Corndog38 View Post
Cat also got into a bit of a pickle with fuel systems and emissions. This is just speculation on my part, but seems to fit.

Cat has almost always made their own fuel injection equipment. MTU/MAN/Volvo/other euro machines have historically bought Bosch injection equipment. Cummins for last 20yrs has bought Bosch for their little engines. Bosch made serious advances in common rail and protected those with lots of patents. For Cat to go CR probably would involve buying or licensing Bosch stuff, and other engine builders may have some exclusivity clauses in their contracts with Bosch?????

So to compete with CR, Cat has few options. I think that may be the reason they bought the 8.9 and 12.9 euro engines complete with Bosch CR, and markets them as "Cats". Folks don't really like buying engines with shared heredity, for good reason.

Similar effect on the road tractor market, they abandoned it.

Just can't really see any other reason why Cat is so far behind on getting CR on their engines.....
Cats are common rail engines and have been common rail for years what are you talking about here. Do you even know what common rail means.
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Old 10-24-2016, 04:21 AM
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The market is too small for CAT ...
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Old 10-24-2016, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by mouse4x4 View Post
Cats are common rail engines and have been common rail for years what are you talking about here. Do you even know what common rail means.
Not in the small engines, up to C32. All still some sort of unit injectors.

Larger engine might be CR, I don't really keep up with those.

Yes, I do know what common rail means. Specifically high pressure CR.

The question remains... why does not Cat use CR on the C32 on down??
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Old 10-24-2016, 07:13 AM
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good topic and discussion but why the poor attempt, by some, at sarcasm that is not at all funny
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Old 11-01-2016, 09:12 PM
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Common rail is any engine that gets its fuel from a common source. Instead of being individual injectors lines from a pump. So yes even being a heui engine that uses a high pressure oil pump that boost pressure to fire an injector thru a solenoid release it is still a common fuel pressure to the injectors thru a built in fuel rail on both heads witch is then considered common rail.
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