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Blow boat school/yacht club

Old 08-18-2016, 06:02 AM
  #21  
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Would you tell your kid to walk in front of semi as long as he was in the cross walk? I think most of us on here know the blow boaters have right of way. But having a common sense discussion with your kid about what is happening around him while on the water makes sense as well.


How many threads are there on people with new boats who obviously don't have a clue on how to operate them. I guess if your kid got killed by cutting in front of someone you could always say at the funeral "but he had right of way".
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Old 08-18-2016, 06:06 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by Time Machine View Post
Boats under sail have right of way, unless you are in a 70' trawler, or tug boat pulling a barge; something that can't maneuver.

My guess is that the guy had to wait less than 5 minutes, and got his feathers ruffled.

Look at it this way, does a tractor trailer get to blow through a stop sign if a bunch of cars are driving by? Well, it's the same way on a boat.
I think the OP's point, and mine, is that just because they have the right of way, doesn't give them the right to systematically be little sh!ts, in an effort to exercise that right. If I read it correctly his frustration was not so much the kids as it was the instructors turning a blind eye to unsafe boat handling practices.

In the case of a narrow channel it is very probably that 5MPH was the fastest safe speed for the powerboat, but there was no such speed restriction for the sailing craft. Regardless of right of way, it is just flat out stupid to overtake another vessel, and expect them to know that you are going to make a sudden turn in front of them. In that situation, the blow-boater has plenty of other options at their disposal, nearly all of which are better/safer options. For the instructor to not be incorporating this into the instruction is a huge disservice to the kids.
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Old 08-18-2016, 06:13 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Time Machine View Post
No, 30 years of experience means nothing if you don't have boat handling skills or knowledge of right of way. The original poster should not have approached close enough to the right of way boats to have any issue whatsoever. Sail boats have sails on them, and you can spot them from a pretty good distance, and they zig zag around to get up wind; anybody that knows anything about boating knows this. I'm pretty sure that the original poster is driving a small boat with adequate maneuverability in the vessel that, given adequate boat handling skills, it could stop or avoid.

Really, the rules are the rules. It looks like that original poster has some issues handling his boat, and on top of this there is some feeling that because the power boat is bigger, he has some sense of entitlement to be excepted from the rules.

Plus, it's not cool to think of children as flys, or Nazis.
A couple of factoids for you. From post #3 is found this statement, The channel is narrow in certain points, That pretty much negates reference to maneuvering around; especially if the OP's power boat wasn't the only power boat on the water.

If the sailboats zig zag (or use the word, tack) to get up-wind, then the YC has a duty to vessels that share the ICW to hold those classes at 0630 to 0830, when the power boaters are generally not out and about. How hard can it be to be respectful of those for whom the ICW was constructed?

If you think that a kid jibing or tacking to a point where he has a clearance of less than 5', then you're accepting that somebody is going to get hurt if the YC doesn't smarten up.

The statement about kids being called names, while no particular kid is being called a name, isn't worth responding to.
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Old 08-18-2016, 06:15 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by bamaboy473 View Post
Don't be so sanctimonious and make assumptions in order to support your supposed outrage at the OP.
a. The OP has 30 years experience, so he isn't a first-timer. What he saw was different from other encounters, or he wouldn't have posted.
b. easily anticipating is a foolish statement, because making a direction change is at the whim of the sailor; the kid could just have easily waited 20 seconds to let the OP's boat pass.
b1. With 20 boats sailing, and with the ICW narrow, it becomes a game of guts...with the sailboats' skippers having the unfair advantage.
c. BTDT when I was a kid in Hollywood....the difference being I did it once and just about got run over. I learned a good lesson that day...pay attention, and don't assume.
d. If the YC had to use the ICW, then it is a big safety lesson that the YC must teach the kids; don't assume that your right of way is going to save you if the motor vessel can't or doesn't stop in time.
e. little kids that are learning to sail don't all have skill sets, and might lose control just after they've entered the kill zone in front of a motor boat. The YC shares responsibility for keeping their kids safe.
f. In this day and age, "entitlement", is a new buzz-words for kids. Read all the posts defending the kids and see where that entitlement has spread to.....parents.
g. Years ago, parents would have known which kids were pushing the entitlement envelope and been at the dock waiting to give the little chit a few extra chores. Why not today?

You can try to wrap it all up into a big tangled thread full of social commentary, but that is completely irrelevant. There is no entitlement here. By law, the motorboat in this scenario is the give-way vessel. Period.

And I promise you, those instructors are advising the kids to be cautious in the vicinity of other vessels. It is part of any sail training program.

However, many motor vessel operators don't realize that the sailing vessel can only manuever in certain ways -- it does not have 360* propulsion like a motorboat. At times, the sailboat will HAVE TO zigzag back and forth up or down a channel in order to make way. Add to this limitation the variability of windshifts and puffs, which also require course alterations. Non-sailors have trouble understanding this, and often complain that the sailboat is steering recklessly or erratically when the sailboat is steering this way out of NECESSITY.

It is a matter of understanding. If you know how to sail, you will understand what the sailboat is doing and why, and you will be able to anticipate the maneuvering. (Often this will permit you to safely thread your way through carefully, even in a channel.) But if you don't UNDERSTAND, you will erroneously conclude that the sailboats are behaving erratically, and might even put your lack of understanding on full display by complaining about it. If you fall into that latter category, keeping clear and giving way is your best approach, as per the law. Yes, sometimes that will result in inconvenience.
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Old 08-18-2016, 06:23 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
I think the OP's point, and mine, is that just because they have the right of way, doesn't give them the right to systematically be little sh!ts, in an effort to exercise that right. If I read it correctly his frustration was not so much the kids as it was the instructors turning a blind eye to unsafe boat handling practices.

In the case of a narrow channel it is very probably that 5MPH was the fastest safe speed for the powerboat, but there was no such speed restriction for the sailing craft. Regardless of right of way, it is just flat out stupid to overtake another vessel, and expect them to know that you are going to make a sudden turn in front of them. In that situation, the blow-boater has plenty of other options at their disposal, nearly all of which are better/safer options. For the instructor to not be incorporating this into the instruction is a huge disservice to the kids.
They were out for a boat ride, and so was the orig poster. The rules say that sail boats under sail have the right of way.

Name calling of children, some feeling of superiority because you have a bigger boat, and insecurity over lack of boat handling skills are just emotions that are really not relevant. That does not change the rules.

Like it or not, it does not matter, it does not change the rules. Really, people should be operating their boats without negative emotion.
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Old 08-18-2016, 06:32 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Tony Trak View Post
I am a power boater and a sailboat racer for 30 years. I agree with wezie. Along with teaching the kids how to race and tactics, they need to teach good seamanship and stress safety.

They are lucky that it was the OP who seems to be a responsible and safe boater, rather than the 46' SeaRay first boat owner that just left the Local ICW beach bar.

On the ICW I have seen inattentive or under the influence boaters hit buoys, markers, sea walls, other boaters, and run aground. The kids should be taught to assume that the power boat does not see them, and then be thankful that the powerboat is the OP and slows to avoid confrontation.

Contact the yacht club. Don't talk about you and how you were inconvenienced, but instead talk about the safety of the kids. These are probably kids of the YC board of directors. They will listen.
concur whole-heartedly.

it's absolutely the yacht club's job to ensure the safety of the kids by putting them in a location that's safe to learn.

we have about 127 sailing schools around annapolis, and it's effin' crowded as hell on the water. yet all these schools, by and large, do a great job keeping the kids out of the way of the channels. i see the schools towing the dinghies (all daisy-chained together) out to specific locations and then back. it's not that hard for them to be responsible and courteous.

getting some reasonable response from the yacht club will all be in your approach...calling their kids a bunch of snot-nosed $h!ts will not likely get you too far.

EDIT: note that if you have been talking about a stand-up paddle boarders class or club, then i would have thoroughly supported you mowing them down. they swarm the annapolis harbor and channels in the evenings and weekends and have absolutely NO EFFIN CLUE about rules of the road...
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Old 08-18-2016, 06:35 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by bamaboy473 View Post
A couple of factoids for you. From post #3 is found this statement, The channel is narrow in certain points, That pretty much negates reference to maneuvering around; especially if the OP's power boat wasn't the only power boat on the water.

If the sailboats zig zag (or use the word, tack) to get up-wind, then the YC has a duty to vessels that share the ICW to hold those classes at 0630 to 0830, when the power boaters are generally not out and about. How hard can it be to be respectful of those for whom the ICW was constructed?

If you think that a kid jibing or tacking to a point where he has a clearance of less than 5', then you're accepting that somebody is going to get hurt if the YC doesn't smarten up.

The statement about kids being called names, while no particular kid is being called a name, isn't worth responding to.
If the channel is narrow, the power boater should have spotted the sail boats at a distance and held short.

Where is this duty to hold the classes in the early morning? I think that you are just making that up, and there is no rule or law that states this.

Respect? I think that is part of it, the original poster thought he was not being adequately respected, but that is his problem and does not influence right of way.

I'm not saying that the club should not sharpen up, because clearly some people do not have adequate boat handling skills to handle their boat, but that does not excuse the inadequate boat handling skills.

No the kids were called flys and nazis behind their backs. You responded to it, but not in a substantive way, because it is inexcusable behavior.
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Old 08-18-2016, 06:36 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by bamaboy473 View Post
A couple of factoids for you. From post #3 is found this statement, The channel is narrow in certain points, That pretty much negates reference to maneuvering around; especially if the OP's power boat wasn't the only power boat on the water.

If the sailboats zig zag (or use the word, tack) to get up-wind, then the YC has a duty to vessels that share the ICW to hold those classes at 0630 to 0830, when the power boaters are generally not out and about. How hard can it be to be respectful of those for whom the ICW was constructed?

If you think that a kid jibing or tacking to a point where he has a clearance of less than 5', then you're accepting that somebody is going to get hurt if the YC doesn't smarten up.

The statement about kids being called names, while no particular kid is being called a name, isn't worth responding to.
Now who has a sense of entitlement?

The ICW was constructed for power boaters only? Of course you can provide a source for this.
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Old 08-18-2016, 07:30 AM
  #29  
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Is the OP running a little center console or a tow and barge! Big difference when referring to narrow channel. I wonder how many of the anti sailboat crowd has enough skill to actually operate a sailboat. These kids will grow up to be much better boat handlers than those who can only steer a little outboard.
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by happyjack92 View Post

EDIT: note that if you have been talking about a stand-up paddle boarders class
As far as I am concerned, hot babes in bikinis can paddle where ever they want.
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:20 AM
  #31  
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From the Naviation Rules

Rule 9 - Narrow Channels

(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel [ which | that ] can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.

(d) A vessel [ shall | must ] not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within that channel or fairway. The latter vessel [ may | must ] use the signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:28 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Time Machine;9367032[B
]If the channel is narrow, the power boater should have spotted the sail boats at a distance and held short.
[/B]
Where is this duty to hold the classes in the early morning? I think that you are just making that up, and there is no rule or law that states this.

Respect? I think that is part of it, the original poster thought he was not being adequately respected, but that is his problem and does not influence right of way.

I'm not saying that the club should not sharpen up, because clearly some people do not have adequate boat handling skills to handle their boat, but that does not excuse the inadequate boat handling skills.

No the kids were called flys and nazis behind their backs. You responded to it, but not in a substantive way, because it is inexcusable behavior.
Show me anyplace in the rules where it says a boat should not be able to use a channel due to sailboats?
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:37 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Brezinup View Post
From the Naviation Rules

Rule 9 - Narrow Channels

(b) A vessel of less than 20 meters in length or a sailing vessel shall not impede the passage of a vessel [ which | that ] can safely navigate only within a narrow channel or fairway.

(c) A vessel engaged in fishing shall not impede the passage of any other vessel navigating within a narrow channel or fairway.

(d) A vessel [ shall | must ] not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within that channel or fairway. The latter vessel [ may | must ] use the signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
I'm guessing that the power boat is less than 20 meters. Most small power boats will be of similar draft as the sail boats (about 3 feet). So if the sail boats are safely going outside the channel, the power boat can go outside also because they will have similar draft.

To know if this rule applies, you need to know the specific water and the specific boats, but I am guessing the power boat is not 70'.
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Old 08-18-2016, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Poppin cork View Post

Show me anyplace in the rules where it says a boat should not be able to use a channel due to sailboats?
You will probably be dissappointed to learn that the navigation rules do not address who should and should not be able to use a channel.

They merely address obligations of respective vessels when there is a risk of collision. In the scenario described by the OP, the rules place an obligation on the motor vessel to give way to the sailing vessels. Period.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by The Spit View Post
You will probably be dissappointed to learn that the navigation rules do not address who should and should not be able to use a channel.

They merely address obligations of respective vessels when there is a risk of collision. In the scenario described by the OP, the rules place an obligation on the motor vessel to give way to the sailing vessels. Period.
I think that is true, unless the original poster has a huge sport fishing boat, or trawler, or a commercial tug, or ship-- something that has to keep on trucking.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by The Spit View Post
You will probably be dissappointed to learn that the navigation rules do not address who should and should not be able to use a channel.

They merely address obligations of respective vessels when there is a risk of collision. In the scenario described by the OP, the rules place an obligation on the motor vessel to give way to the sailing vessels. Period.
That was exactly my point. Sailboaters don't have the right to say when other vessels can or can not use a channel.

I have not read a single response on here where someone has said that sailboats don't normally have the right of way. All is being said is that some of the sail boaters might want to use some common sense before exercising that right.

The rule posted above also seems to make it clear that in a narrow channel the sailboats specifically do not have the right to impede traffic of vessels that can not operate out of the channel.

Once again do you tell your kid to walk in the cross walk in front of a speeding car?
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:39 AM
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Sail boats do NOT have the right of pass.
The right of pass is for the vessel with less capacity of manouvering.

The OP should contact the YC. It is not a good idea to settle the race area invading a channel, if the kids were having a regatta.

My kids are sailors, and my younger daughter is competing internationally. They do learn a lot on the sailing schools.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:47 AM
  #38  
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[QUOTE=Time Machine;9367032]If the channel is narrow, the power boater should have spotted the sail boats at a distance and held short./QUOTE]

I now the area well and totally agree with you on this.
Depending on the Y/C the course is either inside or outside of the ICW.
Whenever I transit the area and see the kids out there I just hang back when they are crossing. It's a no-wake zone in most places.


It's actually worst up on Toms River where they set up the course across the open river and there are no speed restrictions.
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Old 08-18-2016, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Poppin cork View Post
That was exactly my point. Sailboaters don't have the right to say when other vessels can or can not use a channel.

I have not read a single response on here where someone has said that sailboats don't normally have the right of way. All is being said is that some of the sail boaters might want to use some common sense before exercising that right.

The rule posted above also seems to make it clear that in a narrow channel the sailboats specifically do not have the right to impede traffic of vessels that can not operate out of the channel.

Once again do you tell your kid to walk in the cross walk in front of a speeding car?
Motorboaters often site the "impede traffic" rule you mention above as though it is a universal trump card that over-rules the ordinary precedence of give-way vessels. It is not. In many cases, it is the sailing vessel that is constrained by draft due to the depth of its keel and is unable to maneuver outside of the channel. So that rule often gives them additional precedence in the order of who gives way to whom. Even those little sail training dinghies draw 3-4 feet of water -- more than most 20-30 foot motor boats.

Nobody, not sailboaters, not motorboaters, is saying anything about who has the "right to say when other vessels can or can not use a channel." The navigation rules simply stipulate the obligations of respective vessels when there is a risk of collision. That's it. If you understand and abide by the rules of navigation there will not be a conflict. It's pretty simple.

No, we do not advise our children to rush out in front of a speeding car. But we will always speak out against the car that is speeding through a neighborhood and creating a hazard. In this situation the analogue to the speeding car is the motorboater that is not complying with the navigation rules. In your scenario, you want the sailboaters to stay out of the way so that the motorboater can break the law unimpeded. That is a load of crock.

The goal here is to educate about the navigation rules. It serves no purpose to advocate for two sets of rules: The actual rules, and then the rules as some motorboaters wish they were written. That just creates more misunderstanding and confusion, which results in more accidents on the water.
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Old 08-18-2016, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by The Spit View Post
Motorboaters often site the "impede traffic" rule you mention above as though it is a universal trump card that over-rules the ordinary precedence of give-way vessels. It is not. In many cases, it is the sailing vessel that is constrained by draft due to the depth of its keel and is unable to maneuver outside of the channel. So that rule often gives them additional precedence in the order of who gives way to whom. Even those little sail training dinghies draw 3-4 feet of water -- more than most 20-30 foot motor boats.

Nobody, not sailboaters, not motorboaters, is saying anything about who has the "right to say when other vessels can or can not use a channel." The navigation rules simply stipulate the obligations of respective vessels when there is a risk of collision. That's it. If you understand and abide by the rules of navigation there will not be a conflict. It's pretty simple.

No, we do not advise our children to rush out in front of a speeding car. But we will always speak out against the car that is speeding through a neighborhood and creating a hazard. In this situation the analogue to the speeding car is the motorboater that is not complying with the navigation rules. In your scenario, you want the sailboaters to stay out of the way so that the motorboater can break the law unimpeded. That is a load of crock.

The goal here is to educate about the navigation rules. It serves no purpose to advocate for two sets of rules: The actual rules, and then the rules as some motorboaters wish they were written. That just creates more misunderstanding and confusion, which results in more accidents on the water.
Someone did say that the motorboater should have stayed back out of that channel till they sailboats were through. No one is advocating the guy speeding through the no wake zone through the middle of the sailboats. In this case the motorboater did follow the law. He did give right of way. No laws were broken in this scenario.

Like I said before with all of the threads on this site that are about idiots on the water. Are you really confident in telling your children to cut in front of another boat? I can tell you right now with what I see on the water I definitely would not tell my kid to do it.
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