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6/12 11:38am At least 50 dead, 53 injured Orlando nightclub shooting, officials say

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6/12 11:38am At least 50 dead, 53 injured Orlando nightclub shooting, officials say

Old 06-13-2016, 10:44 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by zgilbert View Post
You should know first of all that no where have I ever said I am against concealed weapons, or anyone carrying them.

Quite the opposite. I'm all for it.

But when you go out drinking, I DO think you should leave the gun at home.

http://nj1015.com/mom-off-duty-newar...killed-my-son/

In your example, the old man wasn't drunk, and made good decisions. In my example, both parties were hammered, both were probably hot headed, had a disagreement, one pulled a gun, one is dead, and we'll never know the whole story.. So there you go.

We'll just have to disagree.
So your belief is everyone at a night club is drunk?? If that's the case, shouldn't cars be banned from the parking lot of night clubs?
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Old 06-13-2016, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Wolakrab View Post
Wonder how this guy slipped through the cracks? Two FBI investigations, and he still doesn't get flagged so he cannot buy firearms?
Sounds like FUBAR to me.
It seems like he would have been able to find and purchase a firearm no matter what. Not being able to legally do something doesn't stop criminals and lunatics.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:32 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by GulfC View Post
So your belief is everyone at a night club is drunk?? If that's the case, shouldn't cars be banned from the parking lot of night clubs?

No. What a DB comment.

Here's another.

Do you believe that everyone that holds a concealed permit doesn't drink? Or is perfectly sane and capable of good judgement 100% of the time? Even when they drink? Get real

Bars and nightclubs serve booze. And the vast majority of the people inside are drinking.
And when people drink, they are prone to poor decision making. Even the best of us.
When I bartended I saw fights break out over the stupidest crap. Like who was next in line, to "you can't wear the same dress as me so I'm gonna tear it off". (that one was pretty funny )

And yes, one of those fights that spilled out into the parking lot involved a gun from a car.

It makes absolutely no sense to arm people who are in a crowd drinking booze. Because you don't know who will get their switch flipped, or how far that person is willing to go when that happens.

Heck, for instance take this scenario.. You and your buddy go out and you are the DD. You are carrying.
You stay sober, but your buddy gets white girl wasted, starts something he can't finish, then pulls your weapon while you aren't watching and offs somebody. Or, he accidentally shoots you while you try to stop him from pulling the weapon.
It doesn't necessarily have to be the owner of the weapon that pulls the trigger.
People that carry usually have an eye for others that carry. They know what to look for.
So your concealed, may not be as concealed as you think.

I could go on forever. God bless all of the victims, but guns in bars as a solution to our problem? No thanks. We'll be back in the wild west days.
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Old 06-13-2016, 11:39 AM
  #144  
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Zgilbert.....

Can you please provide us all with some documentation that substantiates your claims that terrorists engaged in killing people will not react to and/or take cover when fired upon. ALL of my 9 brothers and sisters who are ALL in law enforcement would love to read these studies, especially the two in the FBI, the two that are currently in the CIA, and the two who guard the POTUS......no, I'm not joking!


It is my opinion, the more you pontificate on that subject, the deeper you sink sir!

I eagerly await those statistics!
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:02 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by spraynet 1 View Post
Zgilbert.....

Can you please provide us all with some documentation that substantiates your claims that terrorists engaged in killing people will not react to and/or take cover when fired upon. ALL of my 9 brothers and sisters who are ALL in law enforcement would love to read these studies, especially the two in the FBI, the two that are currently in the CIA, and the two who guard the POTUS......no, I'm not joking!


It is my opinion, the more you pontificate on that subject, the deeper you sink sir!

I eagerly await those statistics!

Did you read my post where I said I eat crow on that. Guess not. That was many posts ago. Fine I eat crow on that. There that's twice. Not going to discuss it anymore.

But if you've got facts supporting that guns inside night clubs(not held by security) are a GOOD THING

Post em up.

As for my opinion. I stand by it. Guns in the hands of bar bar patrons is an awful idea.

And thank your family for their service.
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Old 06-13-2016, 12:41 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by zgilbert View Post
No. What a DB comment.

Here's another.

Do you believe that everyone that holds a concealed permit doesn't drink? Or is perfectly sane and capable of good judgement 100% of the time? Even when they drink? Get real

Bars and nightclubs serve booze. And the vast majority of the people inside are drinking.
And when people drink, they are prone to poor decision making. Even the best of us.
When I bartended I saw fights break out over the stupidest crap. Like who was next in line, to "you can't wear the same dress as me so I'm gonna tear it off". (that one was pretty funny )

And yes, one of those fights that spilled out into the parking lot involved a gun from a car.

It makes absolutely no sense to arm people who are in a crowd drinking booze. Because you don't know who will get their switch flipped, or how far that person is willing to go when that happens.

Heck, for instance take this scenario.. You and your buddy go out and you are the DD. You are carrying.
You stay sober, but your buddy gets white girl wasted, starts something he can't finish, then pulls your weapon while you aren't watching and offs somebody. Or, he accidentally shoots you while you try to stop him from pulling the weapon.
It doesn't necessarily have to be the owner of the weapon that pulls the trigger.
People that carry usually have an eye for others that carry. They know what to look for.
So your concealed, may not be as concealed as you think.

I could go on forever. God bless all of the victims, but guns in bars as a solution to our problem? No thanks. We'll be back in the wild west days.
Not a db comment at all. Your way of thinking is paving the way for more of these type things to continue to occur. You're describing thug mentality and applying it with a broad brush to the general population. Thugs are going to have the guns either way, CCW permit holders go through background checks and in general are going to be responsible.

Restaurants serve alcohol too. Plenty of venues serve alcohol. By your assumption there should be all kinds of CCW permit holder arbitrary shootings. Maybe there have been but I never could find much of anything.
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Old 06-13-2016, 01:12 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by zgilbert View Post
Did you read my post where I said I eat crow on that. Guess not. That was many posts ago. Fine I eat crow on that. There that's twice. Not going to discuss it anymore.

But if you've got facts supporting that guns inside night clubs(not held by security) are a GOOD THING

Post em up.

As for my opinion. I stand by it. Guns in the hands of bar bar patrons is an awful idea.

And thank your family for their service.

But I did indeed read your post, especially this part regarding the shooter...

"Fair enough. I knew about the cop, not the guy retreating. I read the latest article.
And I'll eat crow on one thing. This guy was affected by the gunfire."

You went ahead and highlighted two words that stood out, "This Guy", intentionally to tell us all that in this one case yes you were wrong, but in just this one case. As in....in every other case they don't act like this! WRONG!

My brother and sister who guard the POTUS have been in constant training for over 23 years each. They will tell you in ALL situations, 99.9% of all humans will disengage there attack when they perceive a threat either against them or their purpose. The .01% left have been trained through years of constant training to ignore such threats. This POS was NOT the .01%, I can assure you of that!

You've also made several huge generalizations that you could not have possible known. In Post # 126 you state, "The cop at the door has position", can you please let us all know exactly how you know that? in other words, how do you know exactly what position each was standing and/or facing when POS started shooting?

You also go on to make other statements like: "When in a crowd, any CCW holder would not have a position or clear shot" Again, just how would you know that!

Are you aware that there are hundreds if not thousands, of reported, written in stone, documented instances of CCW holders killing or stopping the bad guys because they were in the right place at the wrong time! You don't know about them because either one, you only listen to the Mass media, which will never ever print one of those stories because they have an agenda! or two, because you refuse to do any homework on your own and seek these stories out.

Third.......As a intelligent, mature, trained CCW holder in FL, where I am able to enter any establishment that serves alcohol, but also serves a certain % of food as well, and I only sit away from the bar. I would NEVER have an alcoholic drink while carrying....NEVER.
It is my opinion that the overwhelming majority of CCW holders think the same way I do!

Please be more careful and refrained when writing about things that I believe you have little to no experience in, it does absolutely no good in such an important discussion such as this.
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Old 06-13-2016, 02:27 PM
  #148  
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The only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, it makes no difference if that good guy has a badge or not when your life is on the line.....cops are good guys, and there to stop the threat but when there is a response time of minutes how much time do you have? A properly vetted ccp holder is everybody's best friend in a case like this.....as with society you have different levels of effectiveness and comfort should you choose not to carry that is your choice but there are bad people on this earth and they wish to do others harm....do not try to take away my 2nd amendment right as an American....there are other countries that may suit you and your views on firearms.......from my cold dead hand....RIP to those lost in this tragedy....
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Old 06-13-2016, 02:37 PM
  #149  
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Just found out that a guy my kids went to school with is one of the dead.
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Old 06-13-2016, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by zgilbert View Post
No. What a DB comment.

Here's another.

Do you believe that everyone that holds a concealed permit doesn't drink? Or is perfectly sane and capable of good judgement 100% of the time? Even when they drink? Get real

Bars and nightclubs serve booze. And the vast majority of the people inside are drinking.
And when people drink, they are prone to poor decision making. Even the best of us.
When I bartended I saw fights break out over the stupidest crap. Like who was next in line, to "you can't wear the same dress as me so I'm gonna tear it off". (that one was pretty funny )

And yes, one of those fights that spilled out into the parking lot involved a gun from a car.

It makes absolutely no sense to arm people who are in a crowd drinking booze. Because you don't know who will get their switch flipped, or how far that person is willing to go when that happens.

Heck, for instance take this scenario.. You and your buddy go out and you are the DD. You are carrying.
You stay sober, but your buddy gets white girl wasted, starts something he can't finish, then pulls your weapon while you aren't watching and offs somebody. Or, he accidentally shoots you while you try to stop him from pulling the weapon.
It doesn't necessarily have to be the owner of the weapon that pulls the trigger.
People that carry usually have an eye for others that carry. They know what to look for.
So your concealed, may not be as concealed as you think.

I could go on forever. God bless all of the victims, but guns in bars as a solution to our problem? No thanks. We'll be back in the wild west days.
Oh puh...leeze. Hang around me. If I carry, no alcohol. If I plan to drink alcohol, no weapon, no exceptions.

My buddies have no idea I carry or what I carry or where I carry it, because I have never told them or anyone else. Your hypothetical disaster scenario isn't going to happen with me. Hell, even my wife doesn't know that I carry.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:40 PM
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How about we regulate all guns like we do machine guns, sbr's, silencers etc? On all these gun threads someone always brings up how the criminal did not have a full auto. Seems like those restrictions are working pretty good.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:46 PM
  #152  
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Originally Posted by Trollin4Tuna View Post
How about we regulate all guns like we do machine guns, sbr's, silencers etc? On all these gun threads someone always brings up how the criminal did not have a full auto. Seems like those restrictions are working pretty good.
That's because we are having to correct people who think they do.
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Old 06-13-2016, 03:54 PM
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I Don't disagree with spraynet. However, a person who is payched up as a terrorist, is not a normal person-also remember that this guy "POS" shooter, is not a normal guy. He appears to have some at least some bi-ploar tendency. He is a martyr wanting to die for his "cause". He will keep shooting until stopped by wounds or he runs out of bullets. He also is shooting a rifle, with the same caliber our military uses. Cops learned long ago don't being a pistol to a rifle fight!

The idea that one bullet will stop a mass murder has been put to rest long ago. Yes, the shooter will most likely pay attention to a person who is shooting at him. But he may continue to shoot blindly and continue to kill and injure others. (No one is in this guys head). Unfortunately as an MD I have had more than my share of interactions with crazy people, and they don't react normally! There are many instances of shooters who have been hit many times who continue to shoot. I suspect that when SWAT finally got in, that many rounds were fired before the POS was killed.

I am also a responsible CCW holder, practice, have trained with courses, and individual regular training--probably more experience and training than the average CCW holder. The scene is a dark bar, there is pandemonium screaming, people injured and dead. Are you going to have a clear shot at the POS gunman? Are you at an acceptable pistol range to accurately make a lethal hit? I have seen a lot of LEO shootings, where many rounds were fired--by trained men, and there were no mortal wounds to the suspect. So it is not clear to me, that a single CCW, or even several CCW holders who were not drunk or impaired by drugs (as most of the folks there most likely were) would have been effective....unfortunately.

This POS shooter--Security guard, Class C and G Florida Fire arm licenses! He had credentials to enter federal buildings. He also had a CCW permit in Florida (?)--I wonder because I heard that he had to wait 3 days to pick up the hand gun. He works for one of the premier security firms in the world! Yet, he has been interview 3x by FBI for potential terror links. He has been accused of assault against his wife. Other workers have quit their jobs because of his instability! Why was this not actionable by his employer? Because he was Muslim! Why did not all of this (including several trips to the Mid East get relayed to Orlando PD, to Dept of Agri (screening background checks for weapons)? People dropped the ball!

Lastly "Why can you buy a military type gun like that legally when the is no place for it in the general populace outside of wanting to achieve a mass killing? " Been addressed, but the Ruger Mini 14 is a common semi-automatic rifle, which can fire the same cartridge, with 30 round magazines. Same rate of fire, yet is considered a varmint or hunting rifle--and rarely if ever considered as an "assault rifle". This same rifle was used in Norway in July 2011, to kill 68 and injured at least 110! He had exploded a fertilizer bomb killing 8 and injuring 0ver 208 earlier that day! Peaceful Norway! Difficult to buy guns!
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Old 06-13-2016, 04:08 PM
  #154  
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I have real problems with some of the crap I've come across in the last 24 hours. BIG Problems....

How is it that a guy who's been investigated by the FBI 2X and found to have ties to known terrorists can go out and buy a weapon. Any kind of weapon?

How is it that he can get a job as a security guard of all things with a record of spouse abuse?

How is it that a person as utterly stupid as Alan Grayson can get elected to congress?

How is it that an Imam at a mosque right in Florida can call for the killing of gays an act of compassion and not be in jail for hate speech?

How is it that virtually no one knows the worst mass shooting in our country's history occurred when government troops came to disarm Indians and after having done so, proceeded to slaughter almost 300 innocent women, children and men?

How is it that today a spokesman from the ACLU blamed Christians for this tragedy?

All these are true and I just don't get it.
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Old 06-13-2016, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by s_ebels View Post
I have real problems with some of the crap I've come across in the last 24 hours. BIG Problems....

How is it that a guy who's been investigated by the FBI 2X and found to have ties to known terrorists can go out and buy a weapon. Any kind of weapon?

How is it that he can get a job as a security guard of all things with a record of spouse abuse?

How is it that a person as utterly stupid as Alan Grayson can get elected to congress?

How is it that an Imam at a mosque right in Florida can call for the killing of gays an act of compassion and not be in jail for hate speech?

How is it that virtually no one knows the worst mass shooting in our country's history occurred when government troops came to disarm Indians and after having done so, proceeded to slaughter almost 300 innocent women, children and men?

How is it that today a spokesman from the ACLU blamed Christians for this tragedy?

All these are true and I just don't get it.
I will only address your comment about Wounded Knee.

When the government does it, it is not considered a "mass shooting".. Rather, it is a "necessary enforcement action".
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Old 06-13-2016, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by s_ebels View Post
How is it that a person as utterly stupid as Alan Grayson can get elected to congress?

How is it that an Imam at a mosque right in Florida can call for the killing of gays an act of compassion and not be in jail for hate speech?


The Grayson comment is HILARIOUS!!! There is something really, really wrong with that guy.

The pig who made the comments about killing gays as an act of compassion is, IIRC, Iranian and probably back in his POS country now. The other answer is, he is a member of a protected minority and immune to charges of hate speech.

==>Rapi
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by shansgonefishin View Post
200 odd years from when that law was written I doubt the USA had the military presence they have today and I think any form of invasion would be met with all hell from THE #1 MILITARY FORCE IN THE WORLD. And no doubt if it happened your government could get these type of weapons out to the general populace pretty darn quick.

So my question that never really was answered still remains... Why can you buy a military type gun like that legally when the is no place for it in the general populace outside of wanting to achieve a mass killing?

If you are to be attacked it's going to be from with-in... just like this, but you are gifting it to them.

Maybe that 200 old year law could do with a little tweak to bring the extent of guns back to the basic kill a bear types over the take out a school types.
It was a Bill of Rights, not a Bill of Needs. In terms of types of rifles, few hunters would use a 223 for deer. It's too weak. They would use a heavier, large diameter, more powerful 30 caliber - a 30-30, .308, 30-06, etc. So actually if the guy used a deer rifle, as long as it had magazines for quick reloads, it would be even more deadly.

The 223 (or 5.56) is just about the weakest centerfire rifle cartridge you'll find. People are scared of AR 15's because they look militaristic and extra-killy. Let's focus on the sick person who perpetrated the crime, rather than what type of weapon he used.
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:30 PM
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I had this same debate with a coworker a long time ago about how would I be able to stop an active killer in the office. Like some kind of hero.
I said I wouldn't try to save anyone but only myself as selfish as that is. I wouldnt try to track the gunman down and exchange gunfire. I would escape if I could and if trapped I would hide as best as I could and if/when it was time, I would shoot guerilla style. I have no desire to be a hero.
I want to be legally allowed to carry my firearm wherever I go so as to have a means to save MY life or my precious families.


As a tinfoil hat note, I wonder why these scum seem to choose the hated and politicized AR-15 and not the more effective, more reliable and arguably cheaper AK.
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:33 PM
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Originally Posted by FlyingCircus View Post
The only thing that will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, it makes no difference if that good guy has a badge or not when your life is on the line.....cops are good guys, and there to stop the threat but when there is a response time of minutes how much time do you have? A properly vetted ccp holder is everybody's best friend in a case like this.....as with society you have different levels of effectiveness and comfort should you choose not to carry that is your choice but there are bad people on this earth and they wish to do others harm....do not try to take away my 2nd amendment right as an American....there are other countries that may suit you and your views on firearms.......from my cold dead hand....RIP to those lost in this tragedy....
Very well said! Thanks for weighing in. Always respect your posts.
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Old 06-13-2016, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by yarcraft91 View Post
Oh puh...leeze. Hang around me. If I carry, no alcohol. If I plan to drink alcohol, no weapon, no exceptions.

My buddies have no idea I carry or what I carry or where I carry it, because I have never told them or anyone else. Your hypothetical disaster scenario isn't going to happen with me. Hell, even my wife doesn't know that I carry.
Same here..... no one knows what, when, where or how many.
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