Notices

women in combat

Old 03-04-2016, 06:29 PM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Rodanthe, NC
Posts: 1,273
Default women in combat

I haven't been on here much lately, because I did no receive an owners manual with either of my babies! They are very time consuming (not that I would change a thing)!!

I don't know if this is PC writ large, of a real break through for women who choose a military career, but opening all military jobs to women, meaning combat roles, is either PC run amok, or a real advancement for women.

I have never been in the military, or been in any situation remotely close to combat (what I think that is like, and what people who have been in combat have told me), but it seems crazy to me.

Men almost always defer to women, whether it is basic politeness and proper manners, or the dream of possibly getting lucky men will be protective of women.

Men are just physically stronger than we are. I would bet that, even at my advanced age of 35, that I am the most fit of all the women on THT. (I am a bit younger than the other Vickie!)

What I am getting at, in a red wine haze, is in combat that protectiveness of women will cause more casualties in combat. The reason I mentioned the shape I am in, is that I could not pick up and carry my 240 pound husband, let alone run with him on my back.

Granted, he is in great shape as most Navy combat veterans are, but he has picked me up ( I weigh 160 +/- 5) and run with me on his back.

It seems to me that war is like being pregnant, you either are or you are not. No in-between. Not putting you best on the front lines is a recipe for disaster.

What do you guys think?
Vic34 is offline  
Old 03-04-2016, 06:51 PM
  #2  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marblehead, Ohio
Posts: 9,695
Default

I don't mean to be sexist, just a realist. You don't see women playing in the NFL (although I think they do have a woman coach!) Let's face it, there are just some jobs that men are better at (strength, combat etc) and there are some jobs that women are better at. I think women have a strong place in the military, just not as infantry personell or other jobs that involve live fire, combat type jobs. I think it places our men in jeopardy and we don't need that. They have enough on their hands as is.
Boataholic is offline  
Old 03-04-2016, 07:03 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Jupiter, Florida
Posts: 1,889
Default

My opinion is there is absolutely a place for women in the military and that place is absolutely NOT the front lines. And that opinion is based on some of the same ideas you mentioned. In addition, the ability to be demoralized as a military and as a country is greater if we lose our women to the scum of the earth that crawls around out there. Some of the best strategists I've seen in my profession are women. From military strategy to autonomous weapons to a million other very important ways to support ground troops or other front line forces women (and men) are needed and equally capable.
blackdawg is offline  
Old 03-04-2016, 07:13 PM
  #4  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Wilmington NC
Posts: 1,492
Default

I don't think the strength thing holds water. In my life and athletic endevours I've encountered two women that were physically as strong as me. They both could've done any job the military has to offer strength-wise. So I think there are SOME women who could fulfill the physical requirements of being in the military. Vic I would have a hard time carrying a 240 pound man, that aint easy. Boataholic you don't see any women in the NFL, but 99.9% of men can't play there either. Those guys are superfreaks.
As for as male soldiers being more protective of their female counterparts, this argument might have some merit and I've heard it from some buddies that are combat vets. Personally I say let the troops decide if they want women in combat.
rusbob is offline  
Old 03-04-2016, 07:34 PM
  #5  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Hinesville GA
Posts: 4,534
Default

I remember when they told us we were getting women in the Artillery, I thought " yeah lets see one get loaded up with a 96lb shell on each shoulder and run 100 yds to the next gun" sure some could but a lot couldn't. Women have there place as do men, I don't want to sound sexist but it's true. Now saying that I took a group of people through a military obstacle course in London which ended in an underwater tunnel, ALL the women went through the tunnel and NONE of the men? go figure.
The question about women in combat is , is it harder for a guy to see a woman die or his best mate? tough one.
Gnrphil is online now  
Old 03-04-2016, 07:42 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: se Florida
Posts: 811
Default

there is a place for them in the military, as comfort women.
bugnut is offline  
Old 03-04-2016, 08:36 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
tcpip95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Fort Myers, FL
Posts: 2,086
Default

When I first went on flying status, we were required to attend USAF Survival School. Part of the school included about 3-4 days of POW training, to give you some insight into the psyiological and psychological conditions that would be encountered if taken prisoner. The training dealt heavily in sleep deprivation (on your feet constantly for about 96 hours, a bag over your head, in solitary confinement, with no sleep).

You also go through numerous interrogations, where you experience many ways that an enemy will get information from you, as well as teach you resistance techniques to counter their attempts.

One of the methods of resistance that they HIGHLY DISCOURAGE is the "John Wayne Tough Guy" tecgnique. You will be on the losing end, since they'll simply get more guys to pile on to you.

So, it's Day 3 now, and I get pulled in for yet another interrogation. I'm in at about 80 hours now of no sleep, harrassment, etc, so I'm mentally getting exhausted. I'm standing in the middle of the room,hands bound in front of me, bag over my head,when I hear the door open. As the guy is entering the room, I hear him whisper to someone "Oh shit, this guy's bigger than me".

JOHN WAYNE LIVES!

INTERROGATOR: "Tell me what your job is on that aircraft"
ME: "I'm not telling you a fucking thing"
INTERROGATOR: "oh, I got a tough guy here, huh?"
ME: "yep"

Interrogator picks up the phone and says "go get the female Captain".

We wait for about 10 minutes, then in comes a guard dragging a female Captain that I recognize as a student in the class. She has what appears to be a big red whelt on the side of her face, and she looks like shit.

INTERROGATOR: "Hey Tough Guy, we're gonna take the good Captain next door and tune her up for a little while, because you had to act like an ASSHOLE! Sit here and enjoy the show!

They drag her into the next room and proceed to go to work on her.

SMACK - SCREAM
SMACK - THUD
SMACK - YELL

This goes on for about 5 minutes, until I tell my interrogator that I'll talk.

INTERROGATOR: "No Asshole, you had your chance but instead of takin' it like a man, you decided to dump it off on someone else - in this case, a woman. READ THE RED CARD!"

"Academic Situation"
During the course of your training, the instructors will call a "time out" by using the term "Academic Situation". When these words are spoken, the training pauses, and you and your instructor critique how well - or how poorly - you did. On the back of the door in each interrogation room are a series of colored cards: the green card meant that you did great in resisting, the yellow card meant that you did OK, but could have improved. The red card meant that "you failed miserably, causing probable serious injury or death to someone"

So he calls Academic Situation, and proceeds to really rip into me on how I should NEVER go John Wayne. They brought in the female captain to assist in my debriefing. When I decided to go tough guy, they asked her if she would help them teach me a lesson. She agreed to participate, so they would smack their hands together in the next room, she would scream out, and swear and yell in her voice. They would throw a chair against the wall, and she would again scream out. The lesson that I learned - and apparently is taught at least a couple times to other idiot "tough guys" like me that it doesn't work. It also taught another very valuable lesson: we as Western Males will do whatever we need to do to protect our women. It's not that the women can't take it - they certainly can.

It's that we as men become the weak link in the defense of our country as we'll do anything to protect our women and children. And that is a fact - and a weakness.

Last edited by tcpip95; 03-04-2016 at 09:00 PM.
tcpip95 is online now  
Old 03-04-2016, 09:04 PM
  #8  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Saugus, Ma. USA
Posts: 11,059
Default

There are a few issues with women in combat:
(disclaimer: my wife is a retired 20 year army veteran who received a Bronze Star in Iraq, so I'm in no way against women in the military)
1) strength - on average, men are stronger. Yes you'll find some women that are stronger than some men, but as a gender they aren't as strong and are slower runners.
2) women can handle women in combat, but it's harder for men - if a woman is perceived to be in danger, we want to rescue them. It's the guys with the hangup, not the women.
3) I believe women can't go quite as long without personal hygiene as men can, and health issues will pop up sooner.

None of those are valid reasons to disallow women. It just means we should play to their strengths and make some adjustments.
jobowker is offline  
Old 03-04-2016, 09:07 PM
  #9  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
THT sponsor
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: South FL
Posts: 4,037
Default

I have had similar discussions with my wife and she agrees with me as well. Simply men have higher testosterone levels then women do this means our bodies can handle things most women cannot handle as well. Its simple nature that people chose to ignore, while there are some super strong women out there its not the average much less majority.

Us men perform well at certain tasks that women simply do not perform well at on average. Women perform well at tasks that on average most men cannot. We are meant to be a team were women lack men are there to pick up the slack and were men lack women are there to pick up the slack.

We live in a world now a days that wants to ignore gender roles and that sadly is part of our problems.
wellcraft25 is offline  
Old 03-04-2016, 09:12 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 5,157
Default

A lot depends on your definition of the word combat. The is ground combat, and their are combat rated positions which are realistically a non issue for women.

I have an older sister who served in the Navy for ten years, all over the world. She is the first to admit that while in incredible shape then, she would be at a disadvantage in hand to hand ground combat. Not a situation she wished to be in.

However, she decided to leave the military because they rated positions as combat, and therefore off limits, where the women were fully qualified against the men, and were at no physical disadvantage. But after moving quickly through the ranks, and serving 8.5 years at sea, not checking the box for duty on a combat vessel blocked advancement - the jobs went to lesser qualified men. She handled radar / sonar in the CIC.

Jump back a generation - Dad was commanding aircraft that were served the pre-digital role of what is now the AWACS mission. In about 76' (?) he had some of the first females assigned as aircrew on his teams. One in particular was so petite she has to climb the racks to grab her parachute, and had a special clearance from the Pentagon to fly in a particular type of work boot, because the Air Force didn't yet have a flight boot that small.

But as a search radar operator she became the best he had. The same with some radio operators. In that pre computer enhanced world the women were better focused, and faster to pick up nuanced changes.

The point being that there is more to "combat" than slogging through foxholes. If they can work toe to toe and excel at the job in a combat rated position, why preclude them from serving their country, or hold back their careers. Nine out of ten "combat" positions are not beyond their physical capabilities.

(Ok, rant complete)
Design59 is offline  
Old 03-04-2016, 10:22 PM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Southgate, MI. 48195 USA
Posts: 4,267
Default

Women have been fighting for equal rights since the 60's. With equal rights comes equal responsibilities. Having said that personally I would prefer that women stay out of combat.
RGrew176 is offline  
Old 03-05-2016, 02:08 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: skittleville fl
Posts: 8,246
Default

They should be included in the draft.
mitchell master is offline  
Old 03-05-2016, 08:07 AM
  #13  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 1,661
Default

It is quite common in Europe. Israel even drafts them and has no problem with it. Personally, I think a woman is risking the obvious, beyond what men face. I would not want them drafted, but other than that, it is their choice. As far as the idea that men will fold if women are tortured, I think that is a non issue. Everybody folds under torture. The Army knows this and requires that you resist only to the limits of your endurance. John Wayne was just an actor.
onrecess is offline  
Old 03-05-2016, 08:08 AM
  #14  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
ol guide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Baja Sur
Posts: 6,944
Default

Originally Posted by onrecess View Post
It is quite common in Europe. Israel even drafts them and has no problem with it. Personally, I think a woman is risking the obvious, beyond what men face. I would not want them drafted, but other than that, it is their choice. As far as the idea that men will fold if women are tortured, I think that is a non issue. Everybody folds under torture. The Army knows this and requires that you resist only to the limits of your endurance. John Wayne was just an actor.
not everyone
ol guide is offline  
Old 03-05-2016, 08:14 AM
  #15  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 3,553
Default

We need to give woman combat status so they can get the benefits. Think of it this way. Convoy with woman get ambushed. The woman fight just as hard as the men to survive but do not get combat benefits because they have not been granted combat status.

I'm not sure how good of an idea it is mixing boys and girls at a forward operating base though.
agallant80 is offline  
Old 03-05-2016, 08:25 AM
  #16  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Posts: 1,661
Default

Originally Posted by ol guide View Post
not everyone
History has shown a couple of examples of men who didn't. True enough.
onrecess is offline  
Old 03-05-2016, 09:06 AM
  #17  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
ol guide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Baja Sur
Posts: 6,944
Default

Originally Posted by agallant80 View Post
We need to give woman combat status so they can get the benefits. Think of it this way. Convoy with woman get ambushed. The woman fight just as hard as the men to survive but do not get combat benefits because they have not been granted combat status.

I'm not sure how good of an idea it is mixing boys and girls at a forward operating base though.
without elaborating, i have some real world experience with this and "Folding" can mean many things but i assure you many have not divulged, and i can say this with certainty
ol guide is offline  
Old 03-05-2016, 11:19 AM
  #18  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
spraynet 1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sanford, FL
Posts: 7,209
Default

Originally Posted by onrecess View Post
It is quite common in Europe. Israel even drafts them and has no problem with it. Personally, I think a woman is risking the obvious, beyond what men face. I would not want them drafted, but other than that, it is their choice. As far as the idea that men will fold if women are tortured, I think that is a non issue. Everybody folds under torture. The Army knows this and requires that you resist only to the limits of your endurance. John Wayne was just an actor.
Yeah, um...no disrespect intended here but you truly have no idea what your talking about with the claim that "Everybody folds under torture". That is completely false and I know several personnel in the military that would back up my statement.
spraynet 1 is online now  
Old 03-05-2016, 11:21 AM
  #19  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
spraynet 1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Sanford, FL
Posts: 7,209
Default

Didn't mean to pile on there, didn't see the last response and the wording in your post hit very, very close to home here...
spraynet 1 is online now  
Old 03-05-2016, 02:18 PM
  #20  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 985
Default

Originally Posted by agallant80 View Post
We need to give woman combat status so they can get the benefits..
I must be missing something but what exactly are "combat benefits" and how do they differ from what would otherwise be entitled to?
mitchk is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread