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Old 09-10-2015, 05:58 AM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by onrecess View Post
Oh for goodness sake. Teachers sleeping in class? Really? Someone is buying that manure? If a teacher did fall asleep a student would post the picture on facebook and the teacher would be fired. (With cause, so tenure wouldn't matter and union couldn't do ANYTHING.)
And that is assuming no students killed each other or were filmed fornicating on the desks and pics posted to instagram.
I've never seen any grownups gullible enough to buy that crap.
And teachers not teaching? What, exactly are they doing? Turning your attention away for 30 seconds is less dangerous in a lion tamer's job.

You should read the true stories in Penthouse letters. They are easier to believe.
Teaching is a job where you literally cannot even think about anything else for the entire day. Oh, you do get a 30 minute lunch and the excellent food in the cafeteria is cheap.
Believe it. I have seen it myself although years ago.

One English teacher would dole out a "reading assignment" in class for everyone to read silently. Then he would sit at his desk and read a magazine.

Same teacher, who had his Phd by the way, so one of the highest paid in the school, was part of a joint assignment between vocational classes and English. Basically we had to write a paper on a subject corresponding to our vocational class and would be graded by the English teacher.

Well I didn't do it. We had 5 guys in the same English class and voc class although different periods. Someone wrote a paper on light rail (electrical was the voc class) and we printed off 5 copies with different fonts, different spacing but no changed words. Not one word different!

Said teacher gave them back. Each had a different grade. I had a B+ and my best friend in school had a C-

After getting them back with grades all papers were sent to the voc teacher because he wanted to see what we did. He actually read it and called us all into a lineup pissed as hell. This guy was about 5-2 300lb and all muscle. It was as close as I can think I have ever been to being literally pushed through a brick wall.

After his rant and he settled down, I asked how he caught it yet the English teacher didn't and why we all had different grades. I thought his neck was going to burst. Then he turned around and walked off without saying a thing.

So yeah. There are good teachers and bad. I have seen my share of both.
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Old 09-10-2015, 06:54 AM
  #102  
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[quote=Polapea;8235050]Having taught every level of class from remediation to AP in many different schools I have a few observations.


3. Parents- STOP PUTTING YOUR KIDS IN EVERY G"DAM AP AND HONORS CLASS.
AP courses are college level and many HS teachers try to prove how tough the courses are by overworking their students. I would actually say the average AP course is harder than the comparable course taken in college. Knowing this stop jamming your kids into multiple AP classes. Yes they save some college $ but you also ruin their HS experience. Also stop pushing your kids into courses they have zero business being in. Why force your kid into a course they are going to be overwhelmed in?

With respect:
In my experience (20 years ago) at a upper University vs the HS AP classes- there is no comparison. My serious college load and then business school classes were 10x harder.

My boy was cocky going from Governor's school ALL AP courses (scored almost all 4's) jr and senior year---> UVA got a rude awakening and struggled to get a 3.0 first year. This year his freely admitting UVA is MUCH harder than HS AP's

also

Again in my experience, if you want to get into a top VA University you HAVE to take lots of AP classes and you better have close to a 4.0 too!
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:36 AM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Copper Collar View Post
I find it strange that so many have perfect children/teenagers that don't procrastinate or get distracted or work slowly or do anything but work proficiently at max output for 12-14 hrs a day on in class and homework. I mean to find 1 kid that completely defies what millions of normal children/teenagers and just sit in a chair with their nose in a book and not move for that long is crazy, but to have everyone on this board with kids that do it........ it's almost unbelievable.
I have 1 who does.... 2 who dont and require some parental nudging to get things done. It is the one who does the work on his own that I worry most about. His strive for excellence has him very stressed. It doesnt come from my wife or I either. I have told him repeatedly that there are far more important things in life than a 4.0 in AP/Honors classes. Heck I was a B student at a state college (Coastal Carolina Univ) and have a good job and serve my community and family to the best of my ability.

Last edited by iFishMD; 09-10-2015 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 09-10-2015, 07:51 AM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Polapea View Post
University vs the HS AP classes- there is no comparison.
Both of my kids said the same thing.

They are both in engineering and used the calc/physics AP courses as prep for courses they took in college.

They used the english/history AP courses to place out of electives in college, and took other courses instead.

Both could have used their AP credits to graduate early from college, but my wife and I both feel that college is about more than just banging out the courses and graduating as soon as you can. We encouraged our kids to take courses that they wanted to take outside of their major and get the most out of their 4 years.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:09 AM
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Don't put your kids in honors/AP classes and then complain they have too much homework.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronn Burgandy View Post
No, it doesn't. Your issue is your personal fixation with me. Clearly I was speaking generally, which, for some reason, you took to heart personally. Perhaps because you see my name every time you read one of your posts?

Odd that you "generally spoke" on one of your posts. Its almost as if you understand the concept, but are blinded by it when I use it. Strange.

Of course some people can do both. Most, cannot. Most that think they can/do, probably don't, but they don't understand it because they have been programmed throughout their entire life to think otherwise.

Take an average "successful" business guy. Probably spends 50-70 hours working a week, so we'll say 60 per week. Maybe has an hour commute each day, so there's another 5 hours. 65 hours per week spent away from family...working. 65 hours not doing what he truly enjoys, like fishing, or hanging with friends or family, or playing soccer, or sucking down beers, or playing solitaire. 5 days of the week where he doesn't get to sleep in, hang with the wife, etc. Let's say he gets up at 6:30 and goes to bed at 10:30 each day.

16h a day * 7 = 112. 65 of those hours, or roughly 60% of the time he's awake, he's going to, coming home from, or working. 60% of his time, in my little example, this guy is doing work related stuff, rather than "life" related stuff. He could be super happy with his 40%, doing awesome things, being an awesome dad to his kids, being an awesome husband to his wife...living the life he really wants...40% of the time.

And we, as humans, view him as "successful". THAT is what I take issue with.

...and the reality is, that dude works weekends too, and checks emails at night, and is thinking about work a LOT on his "off time". But my example assumes he completely unplugs when he "clocks out", and remains completely and 100% focused on non-work related things, life family, friends, and fun, and dude only gets 40% of his everyday life.

Yeah man...humans have totally figured this thing called "life" out.
Ronny, you most cetainly were defining loving life and working hard/going to school/having homework as mutually exclusive. To deny that is being intellectually dishonest.

If your real issue is/was our definition of success being skewed then why didn't you just say that? You didn't. You harped on schooling and education.

You seem to think that we have evolved to where our work/life or school/life balance is out of whack. but yet you don't even acknowledge the benefits of and the human desire for education. You act as if education is getting in the way of human enlightenment.

Hey, if you don't want an education or feel it unnecessary and/or a lower priority than others who value an education then you can opt out. do the minimum-barely graduate-prattle on about how the system and/or the human species has bad priorities all the while your chances for a happy-productive life in a free country dwindle.

Let us know how that works out for ya.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Polapea View Post
Having taught every level of class from remediation to AP in many different schools I have a few observations.

1. Homeowrk should never be busy work. Seems obvious but many teachers don't get this. Honestly unless you are reinforcing a concept the majority of HW should be reading or working on long term projects.
2. Kids need to be taught how to prioritize and how to "get by". I specifically taught my AP students how to skim read to get the gist of a selection. There are times when there will just be too much work to get done, that's when prioritizing and knowing how to "get by" become valuable skills.
3. Parents- STOP PUTTING YOUR KIDS IN EVERY G"DAM AP AND HONORS CLASS.
AP courses are college level and many HS teachers try to prove how tough the courses are by overworking their students. I would actually say the average AP course is harder than the comparable course taken in college. Knowing this stop jamming your kids into multiple AP classes. Yes they save some college $ but you also ruin their HS experience. Also stop pushing your kids into courses they have zero business being in. Why force your kid into a course they are going to be overwhelmed in?

Honestly a lot of the issue are parents over-estimating the abilities of their kids and kids feeling pressured to meet unrealistic expectations of their parents. In cases like this an hours worth of HW to one kid may be a 3 hr chore to a kid who shouldn't be in that class. Then again, these are the same parents taking their kids to personal trainers in elementary school because they're gonna be superstar athletes. Fact is some kids just have more ability as parents our job is to help our kids reach their potential.
Thumbs up.
I would bet the copious hours of homework described by the OP is busy work and/or stuff that got missed in class due the teacher's inability to handle his/her workload.
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Old 09-10-2015, 10:41 AM
  #108  
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Took youngest step daughter and her roommate out for dinner last year during family day/week whatever at U of M, incredibly bright kid going for biomedical engineering... Anyway, her roommate burst a long standing bubble I have carried since I came home from Vietnam; ALL MY LIFE, I always felt that I was smart enough, that had I wanted to, I could have been anything I wanted. I could have gone to one of these beautiful colleges with all the incredibly gorgeous girls, frat parties etc.... But Nooooooooooo....... I had to F off in high school, then join the Marines, go to Nam, come home and spend 5 years at night in the local community college Always regretted that I didn't...

Then this cute little girl sitting across the table at dinner fixes all that in one sentence "My guidance counselor told me to expect 60 hours homework a week".... Are you shittin me? There's not a prayer I would have stayed in that!!!! Not a prayer! Not a farts chance in a windstorm! I doubt I did that much studying in a semester during high school or college! God bless these kids!
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Old 09-11-2015, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by jkmjr View Post
I don't mean this in a sarcastic way, but if the teachers at your "TOP RATED" school are such slackers how do you and all your classmates excel. Are you all geniuses?
My son is a senior this year and has very seldom brought homework home. He says he uses his spare time at school to get it done. Papers and projects are a different story. My son is 3rd in his class and fighting to move up to val. or sal. by graduation. I tell him every chance I get that college will be different and he will have to study more. I never studied in H.S. and was in all the accelerated classes and graduated with honors. My first year in college "1.8 GPA" . My parents stroked. My daughter is a H.S. freshmen with the highest average in her class coming into this year. She has always had to do homework at night. It really pisses her off that my son never studies.
We excel because we do the work we are asked to do, it's time consuming but hell. It might be worth it to try and get a good education LOL.
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Old 09-11-2015, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by onrecess View Post
Oh for goodness sake. Teachers sleeping in class? Really? Someone is buying that manure? If a teacher did fall asleep a student would post the picture on facebook and the teacher would be fired. (With cause, so tenure wouldn't matter and union couldn't do ANYTHING.)
And that is assuming no students killed each other or were filmed fornicating on the desks and pics posted to instagram.
I've never seen any grownups gullible enough to buy that crap.
And teachers not teaching? What, exactly are they doing? Turning your attention away for 30 seconds is less dangerous in a lion tamer's job.

You should read the true stories in Penthouse letters. They are easier to believe.
Teaching is a job where you literally cannot even think about anything else for the entire day. Oh, you do get a 30 minute lunch and the excellent food in the cafeteria is cheap.
It was sarcastic, I believe you misunderstood. I meant that they pretty much give busy work and for their own thing for most of the class.
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Old 09-11-2015, 08:08 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Polapea View Post
Having taught every level of class from remediation to AP in many different schools I have a few observations.


3. Parents- STOP PUTTING YOUR KIDS IN EVERY G"DAM AP AND HONORS CLASS.
AP courses are college level and many HS teachers try to prove how tough the courses are by overworking their students. I would actually say the average AP course is harder than the comparable course taken in college. Knowing this stop jamming your kids into multiple AP classes. Yes they save some college $ but you also ruin their HS experience. Also stop pushing your kids into courses they have zero business being in. Why force your kid into a course they are going to be overwhelmed in?
Some schools impose requirements to prevent that. In my daughters' case, those include, as a prerequisite to each AP class, teacher recommendations, prior grades, and a max number of courses. Fewer than 20% are permitted to take the max (5 concurrent classes, I believe). One might think that in a private school, parents can impose their will to circumvent those requirements. I am sure that is true in many cases, but with high schools for which admission is highly selective, parents have little power and the school is able to make decisions that are best for its students.
By the way, the primary benefit of AP classes, in my opinion, is not saving tuition money (in my daughters' case, there are no savings), but instead it is to satisfy the almost universal requirement of a rigorous HS curriculum as a condition to admission to a top-tier university. But, since admission also depends upon A's in those classes, if the kid can't handle the work load, it is doing them no good. In fact, it is probably harming them. All A's with fewer AP's would be better.
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Old 09-11-2015, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rocksandblues View Post
With respect:
In my experience (20 years ago) at a upper University vs the HS AP classes- there is no comparison. My serious college load and then business school classes were 10x harder.

My boy was cocky going from Governor's school ALL AP courses (scored almost all 4's) jr and senior year---> UVA got a rude awakening and struggled to get a 3.0 first year. This year his freely admitting UVA is MUCH harder than HS AP's

also

Again in my experience, if you want to get into a top VA University you HAVE to take lots of AP classes and you better have close to a 4.0 too!
Ok let me re-state:
The volume of work required in AP is higher than the average 100 level course they are equivalent to. This is simply a matter of class time; a typical lab course is 3 days a week with a lab, basically 4 hours a week for a semester. The AP course I taught (E. Sci) was 75 minutes 4 days a week and 150 minutes one day a week for the first semester then 75 min x 4 days the second semester. Simply based on exposure, my students will do more work over the course of the year compared to 1 semester in college.

If you want to look at it another way look at the score distribution. The % of students that get a 3 or better. required for credit at most schools, is around 50%. Do you think only 50% of people taking 100 level e. sci classes in college get credit? In reality, many schools only take 4's and above., in that case the credit % drops to around 20%.

Regarding college admissions, AP classes look good but schools want well rounded students these days. They'll take a kid with a 3.0 who was involved in many activities over someone who has a 3.5 and did nothing but school.
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Old 09-11-2015, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Polapea View Post
Regarding college admissions, AP classes look good but schools want well rounded students these days. They'll take a kid with a 3.0 who was involved in many activities over someone who has a 3.5 and did nothing but school.
Top-tier schools aren't taking kids with 3.0 or even 3.5 gpa's. But all AP's with a 4.0 won't get you in either. I don't remember the exact stats, but something like 75% of students with perfect SAT's are rejected by Stanford, as are an even higher percentage of student body presidents. In fact, by any metric (including legacy and parental wealth for those who think the deck is stacked), admission is very unlikely. There are too many highly-qualified applicants for the relatively few number of positions available at the top-tier universities. At Stanford, 95% of applicants are rejected, even though 80% are academically qualified. The conventional wisdom is that to get into a school like that, you need to be REALLY, REALLY smart, and REALLY, REALLY, REALLY accomplished at something else.

As compared to when I was a kid, at the top end of the spectrum today's kids work harder and achieve more. From what I have seen, excellence extends to 20% of today's high school students. And let's face it, high school classes, even AP classes, are not that tough, for those willing to put in the effort. Most any kid could be in the top 20% of the class, but just are not willing to put in the effort. In my opinion and experience, lots of kids are well served by working hard and taking as many AP's as they can handle.

So much is made of the growing income and wealth gap in our society. Much of that can be attributed to the growing educational achievement gap. And most of that gap is the result of kids not being motivated to work hard, and the root of that problem is typically the parent(s).
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:57 AM
  #114  
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and there you have it.
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Old 09-12-2015, 08:34 AM
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I don't know how she does it. My stepdaughter is 16 and a senior in high school. In two years I have honestly never seen her bring home a single book. She get straight A's...go figure.
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Old 09-12-2015, 06:59 PM
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It was funny, when I was going to college to see all the kids failing from not doing homework. I had to take intermediate algabra ( out of school 20 years). There were 4 classrooms packed with students. When the final came up, all who even could pass showed up. We were in one classroom, every other chair and room left over. Some were taking it for the fourth time! (And not doing homework.
When I took Masters classes, the amount of hw was beyond belief.
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