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Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

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Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

Old 12-20-2005, 08:14 PM
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Default Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

There has been a lot of arguments about unions on the board this last week. Some BS with it, but some good points too. How about we discuss the real important stuff ? We're shipping our manufactoring ovreseas. How can we expect the person without a trade or college degree to make enough money to buy a house, or a new car, or a big screen TV ? Not everybody goes to college or learns a trade, but they need a good paying job too. The service sector can't crry everybody.

This has hit home to me this week as an engineer. I am losing work to Indians from India. They do design work over the internet for 1/6 of what I do. Now they're taking our high tech work too.

What's everbody think ? Is this a non problem as our economy will morph, or has our society in the us ALREADY REACHED IT'S ZENITH and is now on its way down ? ;? ;? ;?
Old 12-20-2005, 08:47 PM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

Everyone points to the labor factor as the reason for the imports and that is one of many factors causing this. One of the reasons is the American consumer wanting a Cadillac at a VW price. I am a manufacturers rep. and a lot of my dealers have commented to me that 10 years ago they would not have considered carrying imports but now 80 percent of their showroom is import products. If they had not made the change they would now be out of business. Consumers seem to be totally price oriented today. I have no idea how this will shake out or what the solution is, but I do know this - by the time everyone is working for $7 an hour, who is going to buy their products?
Old 12-20-2005, 08:51 PM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

If they keep moving production "offshore," eventually there will be a shortage of people with sufficient incomes to buy the stuff.
Old 12-20-2005, 09:28 PM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

I have been telling our kid's for the last few year's , is a degree in bus. really worth it because it's all going over sea's and it seems everyone out there has that 100k degree.
Know think about this...............

How much do mechanic's make and why , cause we aint giving up our car's.

how about an electrician , ya want to see don't ya.

How about food , we have to eat.

What about the water ind.

The list goes on, I'm talking about skilled labor.
What I'm trying to say is, most college degree's are not what they used to be in terms of making the big bucks.
Old 12-20-2005, 10:18 PM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

welder - 12/20/2005 9:28 PM
most college degree's are not what they used to be in terms of making the big bucks.
Old 12-20-2005, 10:32 PM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

welder - 12/20/2005 9:28 PM

I have been telling our kid's for the last few year's , is a degree in bus. really worth it because it's all going over sea's and it seems everyone out there has that 100k degree.
Know think about this...............

How much do mechanic's make and why , cause we aint giving up our car's.

how about an electrician , ya want to see don't ya.

How about food , we have to eat.

What about the water ind.

The list goes on, I'm talking about skilled labor.
What I'm trying to say is, most college degree's are not what they used to be in terms of making the big bucks.

Like my father said you can be paper educated but if you dont have any skills you can wipe your butt with that paper degree,
Old 12-20-2005, 10:59 PM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

I know quite a few people with very impressive degrees that have mediocre jobs. A couple engineers that wait tables, and some out of work due to the company "doing away with the division". It is hard to keep up with foreign countries. It's very easy for a person to come to the states and live the American dream. Instant business loans, and tax exempt for seven years. Let me ask anyone here; what could you do with a guaranteed loan and a tax exemption? I know what I can do. However, I don't get that option so I must take a different avenue. It's a shame when you call customer service and you get India. What next, a CEO going to run a company with 5 execs out of his boat and everyone else outsourced in a different country?

Jim
Old 12-21-2005, 12:06 AM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

Having graduated college in the past couple of years I will say that it absolutely amazes me the number of people that I went to school with that think that just because they have a degree that they are somehow entitled to a huge salary. I have literally seen several people turn down several great offers holding out on something better when in reality the offer they had was much better than the one that they were holding out for. More and more people are unwilling to prove their worth, rather they think that a piece of paper makes them automatically valuable.
Old 12-21-2005, 07:00 AM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

I work in corporate travel. My main client is a major consulting firm. Almost all of their travelers have Master's degrees. It's funny that when they call in and you ask if they are already holding something for this trip and they often give the answer wrong. Frequently the same person will call in and speak with different agents and make the whole arrangement over jsut adding or deleting a car or a seat assignment.

Granted, I dont have much respect for my team-mates who dont think to check when they've been burned repeatedly by this mistake but at least they dont claim to be geniuses!
Old 12-21-2005, 09:51 AM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

How many people over 20 had a high school degree 50-70 years ago? I don't know that answer, but I'd be willing to guess not more than 50%. Well people, a college degree today is becoming what a high school degree was years ago. And the post grad degrees are what the college degree was.

To get a job, you must stand out and above the other applicants for that same job. Whether that means and masters degree, your daddy's friendship w/ the person doing the hiring, or anything else. You must stand out from the other sheep.

Learning a trade is fine and dandy, but what happens 10 years down the road when you wake up one morning and decide you absolutely hate your job? W/o that degree, many, many doors are shut to you. I have a degree in economics right now, and many doors are shut to me because I don't have a masters. Do I plan on getting a masters? Not at this moment, but it's not out of the realm of possibility.

This is not a slam on trade workers, but what I've read so far has been that if you have a college degree, you're an idiot, and you don't know anything.
Old 12-21-2005, 10:02 AM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

Neckbone, I dont get that at all from this thread. What I'm hearing is that education and common sense dont neccessarily go hand-in-hand. Everything else you said I think I agree with.

I have a Bachelor's degree in Aviation Management but changed career paths a few years after graduation. I sometimes joke with my non-college friends when they are razzing me about something, "Hey, just because I went to college doesn't mean I'm stupid!"

Old 12-21-2005, 10:14 AM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

This is a very interesting topic, and really has no correct answer. As consumers we want cheaper everything without sacrificing quality. We want Yugo pricing with Rolls Royce quality. Well what are the businesses (used generically to incorporate all sectors) to do? They have to find cheaper parts and labor - not only to fatten the bottom line, but also to satisfy end user demand.

Reality is - that cheaper pricing can not, for the most part, be found in the states - outsourcing almost becomes a mandate.

Old 12-21-2005, 10:40 AM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

Kamper - yes, they fo not go hand in hand.

Welder - yes there will always be a need for skilled labor here, on our turf especially as Americans get dumbed down. Most of our fathers/grandparents too care of most of the home maintenance, now most guys can't check their oil. There are things a person 5000 miles away cannot do.

My wife has a college degree, I do not. I have always made about twice what she does.

I, fortunately, have the common sense side of the coin. Not that my wife doesn't......
Old 12-21-2005, 10:44 AM
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Default RE: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

This is a subject i have first hand experience with. I worked in the furniture industry for a little over 19 years, without a degree I might add. I managed to WORK my way into a good position, with the help of some continuing education. Now China is the major player in furniture thanks to the help of profit oriented CEO's, and the company I worked for no longer exists, along with many other companies. Bottom line, US based manufacturers can't compete with foreign industry due to the huge costs not many people think about: taxes, social security, insurance, workman's comp, OSHA, EPA, just to name a few. I personally think labor costs are not the real deciding factor. In the company I worked for labor was less than 20% of the cost while overhead exceeded 200%. One more interesting note and I will sit down and be quiet: companies can build new plants in foreign countries faster than they can get all the permits to begin construction in the US. I wish we could all buy only American made, but the sad fact is we can't unless we are going to do without a lot of things. Merry Christmas everyone.
Old 12-21-2005, 02:34 PM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

Stump, I feel your pain. My degree is in Wood Industries Management. I have gotten out of the wood industry (six months ago) because I could not find a job. I like what I do now, but it is not wood and what I love.
Old 12-21-2005, 03:19 PM
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Default RE: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

morechaching - 12/20/2005 8:14 PM

How about we discuss the real important stuff ? We're shipping our manufactoring ovreseas. How can we expect the person without a trade or college degree to make enough money to buy a house, or a new car, or a big screen TV ?
This is a fairly easy questions to answer - invest in the countries that are getting the bulk of the outsourcing.

But as far as the education vs. trade/ skilled labour thing goes, let me through this into the mix. Keep in mind these numbers are purly fictious numbers

Two buddies take different paths in life but always remain close friends.
GUY 1: goes to University then on to Med School to become a Doctor (GP).
- expenses totaling for 7 yrs. @ approx. 40k per yr equals close to 300k.
- gets a job for 80k a year.

GUY 2: leaves high school at the same time as his buddy and starts an apprenticship for lets say a crane operator.
- four years later he has his papers and is earning approx. 120k per year.

Now GUY 2 in the three remaining years GUY 1 is in school GUY 2 will have earned approx. 360K, whereas GUY 1 would have spent approx. 120-140k. That's a difference of close to a half mil.

So if the sole purpose of an education is to make better money because of a better job, who's the smart one here?
Old 12-21-2005, 04:46 PM
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Default RE: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

Welder, and some of the others on this site are correct. There are plenty of jobs in the trades going unfilled. The company I work for (a manufacturer of large yachts) has plenty of metal working trade jobs going empty with starting wages in excess of $20 per hour plus a pretty liberal benefits package.

The only disagreement I have concerns the comments on farmers. They buy at retail, sell at wholesale and pay the freight both ways. If you look at the captial commitment required for land and equipment and the risk factor (weather and market dependant) it's a wonder any one farms. It sure takes a deep personal commitment.
Old 12-21-2005, 04:57 PM
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Default RE: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

Keyskid - 12/21/2005 4:46 PM

Welder, and some of the others on this site are correct. There are plenty of jobs in the trades going unfilled. The company I work for (a manufacturer of large yachts) has plenty of metal working trade jobs going empty with starting wages in excess of $20 per hour plus a pretty liberal benefits package.

The only disagreement I have concerns the comments on farmers. They buy at retail, sell at wholesale and pay the freight both ways. If you look at the captial commitment required for land and equipment and the risk factor (weather and market dependant) it's a wonder any one farms. It sure takes a deep personal commitment.
It all depends on the type of farming you plan on getting into. There are many very profitable fields that you can get into that have realitively low investment given the potential return. One such example in my region is poultry production. This is typically handled on a contract basis where typically the company you contract to grow for covers the cost of all feed & supplies the birds as well as transportation costs. In most cases the contract at minimum covers the length of the loan required to pay for the structures & equipment necessary.

IMO everyone should try to bring to the table a variety of skills in addition to whatever education they may have. Education is always a good thing to have, but in some cases is not necessary. At the same time, having extreemly specialized skills that can't be applied in multiple situations can also be a limiting factor for career growth. Finding a nice balance of education, experience, and skills is IMO the best way to insure youself a position that will enable you to be financially stable.
Old 12-21-2005, 05:02 PM
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Default RE: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

Break through's in technology, productivity and innovation will allow this country to compete against the massive amount of untapped cheap labor found throughout the world. If we recognize this reality and adapt we will remain on top of the value chain.

If we simply long for days of old and try to counter these irreversible forces through tariffs, quotas, etc., we will fail and suffer accordingly. We need to funnel more time and money into the pursuit of innovation and make a fundamental and material change in our education system to better position all American's so they can ride the wave to prosperity. We have the potential to not only counter the global forces that conspire against us, we can improve our standing if each and every American learns to appreciates the bounty that comes from the table of the entrepreneur. Class warfare is a leach that is sucking the blood from the most productive members of our society and those that hold the keys to the future. The Bill Gates, Home Depots, Pfizer's, etc. of this country should be our role models, not the targets of the jealous and envious that would rather see those entities or people fail.

This is the land of opportunity. The further we move ourselves away from that motto the more realistic the dire predictions become. Our system needs to improve the risk/reward ratio and penalize more heavily those that do not want to improve their value added skills. At the end of the day if this country flounders it will not be due to some "corporation" making a bad decision.......it will be due to we, the people, sitting on our hands waiting for someone else to fix the problem. The more we become a country of victims the fewer chances we have to compete and win in the global marketplace.

Having made a flowery and vague response let's get down to some specifics. How can we counter the global supply of cheap labor? Figure out how to make the same dam!n things with less labor.....or....... shift the equation so that maybe we can not get all of the labor hours out of the production but we can produce the same dam!n thing with less materials or consumption of energy. Speaking of energy.....we should have embarked decades ago on a national initiative to reduce our dependency on oil and coal. We need to have a serious debate on the use of nuclear energy. Education......put in place performance measurement metrics for school districts, teachers and the friggin students and hold them to it. How about our government bodies? Term limit all of those worthless bastards and reduce the value of being in those positions....and more importantly, make them live under the rules and laws they concoct.

The bottom line is our destiny is in each and every one of our hands. If we rise to the occasion we will kick ass and take names like we have always done. If we wait for some one else to improve the situation and make our lives "fair" we will fail. BTW - who the hell ever said life has to be fair......it is what you make of it.......period.
Old 12-21-2005, 05:07 PM
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Default Re: Corporate America Selling Us Out ??

Tireless:

Well written and I agree. You do however, read as if you are running for office.

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