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Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin's War in Ukraine and Boris Nemtsov's Putin. War

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Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin's War in Ukraine and Boris Nemtsov's Putin. War

Old 06-04-2015, 08:23 AM
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Exclamation Hiding in Plain Sight: Putin's War in Ukraine and Boris Nemtsov's Putin. War

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/publi...ov-s-putin-war

Very interesting reading, long but detailed.
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Old 06-04-2015, 08:38 AM
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Didn't get past the first paragraph...It is my understanding that the US pretty much started the stuff going on over there. Lots of "weird" things that appear to be benefitting the US have occurred since, but I think Ukrainians are leaning towards siding with Russia...

Ukraine is signing gas deals with Russia and I believe Euroland is slowly starting to tilt towards Russia as well. Things are not always as they appear in our media.
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Old 06-04-2015, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by schoolsout1 View Post
Didn't get past the first paragraph...It is my understanding that the US pretty much started the stuff going on over there. Lots of "weird" things that appear to be benefitting the US have occurred since, but I think Ukrainians are leaning towards siding with Russia...

Ukraine is signing gas deals with Russia and I believe Euroland is slowly starting to tilt towards Russia as well. Things are not always as they appear in our media.
Wow,

Where have you been reading that sh*ite? From some parallel universe?
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Ermoalfa View Post
Wow,

Where have you been reading that sh*ite? From some parallel universe?
Define "parallel universe."

When this all started, some interesting "bugged" calls were released

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957

Who backed the snipers killing those trying to make the gov't, which the US wanted to replace, look bad?

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-...-call-suggests

During a hacked phone call that sparked an uproar and confusion worldwide after being leaked to the media, Estonian Foreign Minister Urmas Paet told European Union foreign policy boss Catherine Ashton that evidence suggests that the same snipers, allegedly hired by opposition forces, may have shot dead both police and protesters amid the Maidan uprising. An estimated 100 people were killed amid the turmoil, with close to 1,000 wounded.

While Paet has confirmed that his conversation with the senior EU official was genuine, numerous crucial questions remain unanswered as calls for a formal investigation into the allegations grow louder.

“All evidence shows that people who were killed by snipers — both policemen and people from the streets — that it was the same snipers killing people from both sides,” Paet, the Estonian foreign minister, can be heard telling the EU’s Ashton during the leaked February 26 call, citing pictures and a conversation he had with a doctor named Olga in Ukraine. “There is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovich, but it was somebody from the new coalition.” He also said the developments “already discreditates [sic] this new coalition” and that Ukrainians believe their new rulers, like the old, all have a “dirty past.”
How about the US/Western World's role in fomenting the uprisings/backing a new gov't? Where have we read about this before?

It is the second time in recent weeks that a leaked phone call about the Ukrainian chaos between senior Western officials has raised major questions about what is really going on in the embattled nation. Early last month, another explosive conversation was leaked that shed light on the Obama administration’s barely concealed role in helping to foment and guide the chaos. In the hacked phone call, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt were caught plotting what sounded suspiciously like a “regime-change” operation — even presuming to decide what politicians would be most suitable for the post-uprising Ukrainian government.
“I think Yats [Yatsenyuk] is the guy who’s got the economic experience, the governing experience,” Nuland said during the leaked call. “What he needs is Klitsch [Klitschko] and [Oleh] Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in, he’s going to be at that level, working for Yatsenyuk, it’s just not going to work.” Pyatt responded, saying: “Let me work on Klitschko ... and I think we should get a Western personality to come out here [to Ukraine] and midwife this thing.”

The U.S. State Department, which has been vocally supporting the protest movement while threatening members of the former regime, refused to comment on either of the leaked phone calls. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki, however, while claiming to have no comment about the developments, was quoted accusing authorities in Moscow of being behind the hacks and leaks of phone calls. “This was another example of how the Russians work,” she said. Russian officials have also remained relatively quiet on the calls as well.

If nothing else, the latest developments in Ukraine confirm once again that the public should take all claims made by Russian, Ukrainian, and Western politicians — in fact, any and all politicians — with a grain of salt, at least until real proof emerges to confirm them. In the real world, as The New American has been documenting, despite the public posturing for the masses, the international establishment is still working on what it calls “convergence” and “integration” between so-called “East” and “West.” The new interim government also includes plenty of "familiar faces."

The uprising in Ukraine, which began as a protest movement late last year following the government’s decision to back out of talks with the EU, eventually morphed into a full-blown revolution with foreign support. As violence soared and demonstrators seized control of government offices, the regime of former Soviet Communist Party operative Yanukovich, widely viewed as a corrupt, Putin-backed criminal, was deposed. In its place, controversial opposition figures seized control.


There is no telling what is really going on as propaganda is coming from all angles, but to blindly believe that the US is "right" and Russia is "wrong" is nonsense.

I think much of this, if not all, is staging for who will be able to take most advantage of the resources in that area. Same as it ever was....
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:13 PM
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By the way...

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...to-sway-russia

March 16 (Bloomberg) -- A majority of Crimeans chose to join Russia in a disputed referendum, exit polls showed, deepening the worst crisis between Russia and the West since the end of the Cold War.

A total of 93 percent voted today in favor of leaving Ukraine to become part of Russia, the Republican Institute of Social and Political Studies said, citing exit polls from the vote in the Black Sea peninsula. The Ukrainian government, the European Union and the U.S. all consider the referendum illegal. About 1.5 million Crimean voters were eligible to take part, according to the region’s prime minister.

As the West threatens to ratchet up sanctions if Russia doesn’t back down from annexing Crimea, Russia has deployed about 60,000 troops along the Ukrainian border, the government in Kiev said. Ukraine closed border crossings to Russia and will mobilize as many as 15,000 volunteers in the next 15 days to defend the nation, officials said today.




“We’re on the brink of a new cold war where Europe’s view of Russia as a benign nation that could be integrated economically and politically has become history,” Fredrik Erixon, director of the European Centre for International Political Economy in Brussels, said by phone.
The West says that the above is illegitimate...imagine that.
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:23 PM
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I had heard that Putin employed an army of bloggers, but never saw an obvious one until now.
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:25 PM
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A lot of things are happening...some say a great paradigm shift is occurring...who knows, but there is always more than meets the eye (especially when it comes from the media).

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle17638238/

Suspended from the G8 and facing the weight of Western sanctions, Russia president Vladimir Putin need not feel lonely. He is still welcome in one prominent club of nations: the BRICS group.

His allies in the five-member bloc of nations – including China, India, Brazil and South Africa – are refusing to abandon him. Their foreign ministers met on Monday in The Hague and announced that they rejected the use of sanctions in the Ukraine crisis.

The bloc also criticized the suggestion that Russia should be suspended from the G20 summit this year. The summit is due to be held in Brisbane in November, and the host Australian government has hinted that Mr. Putin might be banned from attending.

The statement by the BRICS ministers makes clear that the leading nations in the developing world have no appetite for the Western attempts to apply heavy pressure on Moscow over its annexation of Crimea.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoz...anking-system/

Russia has decided it will take the lead in disrupting the dollar denominated unipolar world. It’s first attempt is to create an alternative to the Society for Worldwide Interbank Financial Telecommunication system, aka the SWIFT code, which is a Western-led financial backbone dealing with $6 billion transactions daily.

Some anti-Russia European politicians have called on removing Russian banks from the SWIFT system. The reason? Ukraine. For a country no one has talked about since the days of the old Soviet Union, Ukraine has driven a wedge between Russia and the Western world.
http://thediplomat.com/2015/03/china...o-integration/

The Eurasian Economic Union and the New Silk Road are two major foreign policy projects which Russia and China, respectively, have been pursuing since the early 2010s. The initiatives are the pet projects of the two states’ leaders.

Vladimir Putin proposed the Eurasian integration in October 2011, while running for his third presidential term. In an article published in Izvestia, Putin sketched out his ambitious vision of a Russian-led political-economic bloc in the post-Soviet space. Russia convinced Belarus and Kazakhstan to sign up to the project the following month but it took another three years to sign the treaty establishing the Eurasian Economic Union. 2015 marked the official inauguration of the union, which was almost immediately enlarged to include Armenia.

Xi Jinping put forward the idea of renewing the Silk Road two years after Putin’s initial declaration of Eurasian integration. During a visit to Kazakhstan in September 2013, the Chinese leader vowed to create a “Silk Road Economic Belt” as the first step in the process of connecting China to Europe via Central Asia. Several weeks later, during his trip to Indonesia, Xi presented a parallel initiative, the 21st Century Maritime Silk Road. The idea of reviving the ancient Silk Road quickly became popular in the Chinese media and expert circles. “One Belt, One Road” became a popular slogan describing the project.
http://www.cfr.org/councilofcouncils...l_memos/p36088

Thanks to the power shift in the international system and the deepening cooperation of the BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa) in the past six years, the role of this group in global affairs continues to gain momentum. The BRICS group is not only an economic concept but increasingly it is also taking the form of a political entity. However, with the slowing economic growth in BRICS countries and changing geopolitical dynamics around the world, the role of the BRICS on global governance is facing greater challenges than before. As the largest economy of the five countries, China’s vision and strategy about the future of the BRICS group is increasingly important.

Russia will host the seventh BRICS summit July 9–10, 2015, in Ufa, the capital of the Republic of Bashkortostan, gathering the heads of state of the five countries. As per usual, the hosting member will decide the annual summit theme. This year, Russia finds itself confronting worsening relations with the United States and the European Union over the Ukraine crisis, in addition to its own economic problems. Considering these current difficulties, one of the major challenges for the BRICS in 2015 is how to maintain a relationship of cooperation with Russia. Before discussing China’s perspective, it is worth considering Russia’s agenda for the BRICS in 2015.
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ronp364 View Post
I had heard that Putin employed an army of bloggers, but never saw an obvious one until now.
Very intelligent response...

Decide not to actually talk about the subject at hand and choose, instead, to resort to a 3rd grade tactic...

Congrats.
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:41 PM
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Nobody is claiming blindly that what is being sold in western media is the gold standard but in your first post it appeared that you were doing the same for the Ex-Soviet perspective.

My read on this is the following:
1. Moscow was surprised by the rejection of the Ukrainian opposition of the U-turn on signing the EU agreements.
2. Spooks on both sides leaked calls and ratched up the heat.
3. Moscow had planned for the possibility of their hybrid war and took the EU off guard and correctly predicted nobody would have the balls to intervene themselves.
4. Moscow hoped to achieve their goals "on the cheap" but had to commit more troops and equipment
5. Some areas such as Crimea supported Moscow but others did not requiring the more direct involvement of Russian troops "on holiday".
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:47 PM
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So, if Crimeans (apparently) would like to be annexed to Russia and the US decides to fight this war by installing pro-Western gov't, is Russia the "bad guy" here? Not saying they are angels...or that I know what is going on, exactly, but the US and West has a way of trying to get their way which oftentimes comes back to bite us.
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:51 PM
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When the Ukraine was whole (including Crimea) the government wanted by the people was one that was aligned with the west.

Elements of the Ukraine wanted to be aligned with Moscow such as Crimea, just like the USA, heck parts of Texas might vote to become part of Mexico given the chance....

Moscow is playing the game very well but sadly the idea of integration in the post cold war order has been shattered for decades....
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Old 06-04-2015, 12:58 PM
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I think things are changing, though. I think a lot of the world is seeing that the West is out of control and are looking ahead and starting to shift. No telling how things will play out, but on the current path we are on, it does not bode well for us. That said, things like this are not new...the world will not end, only that things will change somehow, someway.

I personally believe that the "East" has a longer-term strategy than the "West." At least, in China's case...and they are becoming very, very good chums with many nations. Resources are what is at stake, IMO.
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by schoolsout1 View Post
I think things are changing, though. I think a lot of the world is seeing that the West is out of control and are looking ahead and starting to shift. No telling how things will play out, but on the current path we are on, it does not bode well for us. That said, things like this are not new...the world will not end, only that things will change somehow, someway.

I personally believe that the "East" has a longer-term strategy than the "West." At least, in China's case...and they are becoming very, very good chums with many nations. Resources are what is at stake, IMO.

WOW! What a load of garbage.
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Old 06-04-2015, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by easy_e View Post
WOW! What a load of garbage.
How so? Use that brain of yours and learn me something instead of just spouting out an opinion with nothing to back it up.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by schoolsout1 View Post
I think things are changing, though. I think a lot of the world is seeing that the West is out of control and are looking ahead and starting to shift. No telling how things will play out, but on the current path we are on, it does not bode well for us. That said, things like this are not new...the world will not end, only that things will change somehow, someway.

I personally believe that the "East" has a longer-term strategy than the "West." At least, in China's case...and they are becoming very, very good chums with many nations. Resources are what is at stake, IMO.
Agreed that there is a shift from the auto-dominance of the USA with the alignment of the past fractious BRICS nations. For me in recent years it started when Russia out diplomatically manuevered the west with Syria. Since then its been getting worse and worse.

What really worries me is China's reclamation of islands to build military capable facilities which someone is going to have to respond to. For me they were embolden by the Crimea debacle and how the west didn't have the balls to respond.

These events are all linked IMO.
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Old 06-04-2015, 02:38 PM
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If Venezuela had some semblance of shit together they would be pulling some crap too right now .

Last edited by Captain Twice Screwed; 06-05-2015 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by schoolsout1 View Post
Very intelligent response...

Decide not to actually talk about the subject at hand and choose, instead, to resort to a 3rd grade tactic...

Congrats.
You're too far gone to try to have a conversation with. Anyone who can't see evil when it's right in front of them isn't worth the time. Putin is pure evil. You're either too blind to see it or you have a reason not to.

Why would anyone waste time responding point by point to propaganda reposts?
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Old 06-04-2015, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ronp364 View Post
You're too far gone to try to have a conversation with. Anyone who can't see evil when it's right in front of them isn't worth the time. Putin is pure evil. You're either too blind to see it or you have a reason not to.

Why would anyone waste time responding point by point to propaganda reposts?
And where did you gather your opinion? From the mainstream US media by chance?

I think schoolsout has some good points, he's being very objective and not just looking at this from the U.S. point of view.
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Old 06-05-2015, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ronp364 View Post
You're too far gone to try to have a conversation with. Anyone who can't see evil when it's right in front of them isn't worth the time. Putin is pure evil. You're either too blind to see it or you have a reason not to.

Why would anyone waste time responding point by point to propaganda reposts?
I don't think Putin is "pure evil." I think he loves his country. I think he is trying to do what is best for it. Unfortunately, many of his views do not align with the leaders of our country. Big power struggles to come for all involved.
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by schoolsout1 View Post
I don't think Putin is "pure evil." I think he loves his country. I think he is trying to do what is best for it. Unfortunately, many of his views do not align with the leaders of our country. Big power struggles to come for all involved.
Read objective news sources about what life is truly like in Russia. e.g. corrupt practices where the connected use the police to arrest rival business owners and basically destroy them. Murders of political rivals. This stuff is not hard to find. Putin is entirely corrupt, presiding over a country where the concept of justice by any standards we subscribe to is unknown. He's a less ambitious Hitler. Nothing he is doing is necessary to preserve Russia's security or economy. It's necessary to feed his megalomania and his bank account.

It's laughable to try and paint the US as somehow a villain by comparison.
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