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Old 08-14-2018, 11:05 AM
  #221  
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
Don't we all break the law on a regular basis? Do you signal every turn and lane change? Do you always come to a complete stop at signs and right on reds? Never take any liberties with the speed limit?
Originally Posted by acme54321 View Post
No never.
Originally Posted by NCSUboater View Post
Oh yeah I absolutely do rolling stops...anyone that says otherwise is lying.
Acme, are you going to let him get away with that?
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:11 AM
  #222  
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
Why are cyclists so opposed to riding on the shoulder, when it is plenty wide enough to do so, and in great shape? Idiotic to not do so. Or just get crunched by a truck........that seems smart.

The part you are missing regarding my perception is that morning time heading east you are staring into the rising sun, especially when heading up a hill. It is hard enough to see vehicles, much less bicycles. The ones that got hit along this stretch a couple of years ago were traveling the opposite direction as the sun set. Same issue, just the opposite direction at the tail end of the day. In this case they aren't a traffic issue at all, but they are a safety issue. The burden of not killing a hard to see cyclist is being shifted to motorist. Cyclist should take better care to be out of the path of traffic when conditions make it difficult to see them. No amount of reflective gear or blinking lights helps when you are approaching from the rear staring into the sun.
I am not opposed to riding on the shoulder in most circumstances. I am also not opposed to a group ride in the lane of traffic when in my estimation I can to it with minimal disruption to auto traffic. That most often happens early on weekend mornings or after work on low traffic rural roadways. Or at least that's the way it worked when I was doing group rides regularly.

I can give you what I believe are legitimate reasons cyclists might not ride on that narrow shoulder you posted a picture of.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I am not opposed to riding on the shoulder in most circumstances. I am also not opposed to a group ride in the lane of traffic when in my estimation I can to it with minimal disruption to auto traffic. That most often happens early on weekend mornings or after work on low traffic rural roadways. Or at least that's the way it worked when I was doing group rides regularly.

I can give you what I believe are legitimate reasons cyclists might not ride on that narrow shoulder you posted a picture of.
Which are?
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:27 AM
  #224  
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I see a couple things missing in the OP's opening post/picture.

No Truck lane, No HOV lane, No motorcycle lane, no ATV/UTV lane, no golf cart lane, no pedestrian lane, and no gender neutral lane although that cyclist looks like he will likely be gender neutral in a year or so. Looks like class warfare to me.

Why is govenment picking the winners and losers. Shouldn't I be free to drive a golfcart on the highway if I choose or have golfcart lanes constructed to meet my needs? What makes bicycles special.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
Someone explain to me why cyclist view these as Kryptonite. Route I take to work has one that is in perfect shape, is plenty wide for 2 bikes side by side. It is designated for bikes and pedestrians, but pedestrians never are on it. Yet the cyclists play in traffic. Idiots.
agreed. We have tons of greenways connecting downtown to the burbs that are usually empty. Most are brand new. I don't get it

Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
I have met some real idiots in my days, but I have never met an adult who would purposefully roll through any traffic control device without looking. I have never seen it either. Do you really believe they don't look and that it is a regular occurrence? I have done a fairly detailed breakdown on bicycle fatalities. A cyclist getting killed for failure to stop at a traffic control device is rare. Yet every time we get into these conversations multiple people say they see cyclists blow traffic control devices without looking on a regular basis. Either cyclists manage to miraculously cheat the odds year in and year out or folks might not be getting an accurate read on the situation.

Can you put me on a Google map of that location?
I have seen cyclists blow through stop signs and lights regularly, especially downtown. Usually they cheat over to the far right on the shoulder such that if there is a car coming they can theoretically not become a hood ornament. I have not done detailed studies, just what I have witnessed. The point is sharing the road means obeying traffic laws, and cyclists in general seem to think they are above them. A much larger group WILL stop at a red light, and proceed to blow through it after looking. That REALLY pisses me off.

As for the location of the accident (I'm assuming that's what you meant) I'd have to find the news article, but there was nothing special about it. 4 lane highway, straight, no big hills. I believe the 18 wheeler was following maybe a box truck or just a pickup. Cyclist was in the travel lane instead of on the HUGE shoulder for who knows why. Truck swerved, cyclist came into view of the big rig for the first time. Couldn't swerve or slow down so he hit him.

Could have been prevented. Again I'm not against cyclists but what he did was the equivalent of riding a 50cc scooter on the interstate. Just plain stupid.

The ones that ride on the road our lake and boat ramps are off of are either ignorant or just plain stupid and irresponsible. They put themselves and everyone else in danger that has to slam on the brakes or swerve to miss them. Drives me crazy.

I just don't understand putting yourself or others in that position unless you just haven't got a clue or any situational awareness whatsoever. There are plenty of rural roads around here that are great for bikes. And hundreds of miles of trails and greenways that sit unused.

Last edited by NCSUboater; 08-14-2018 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:46 AM
  #226  
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
Which are?

The first reason is that when you are riding on the shoulder vehicles that might enter or cross the roadway are less likely to see you, or if they see you they are less likely to treat you as traffic. I have had people look right at me and pull out. Fortunately one of the benefits of a bike is that we are traveling more slowly and our stopping distances are much shorter. But the threat of not being seen in that situation is very real.

The second issue is specific to that shoulder. It is very narrow. If I position myself in the center of that and hold a perfect line the left edge of my handlebar is very close to the travel lane. When motorists see you on the shoulder, they often won't bother with moving as far left as they reasonably can. I have found that when I am in the lane motorists are much more likely to give me the 3 feet required by law than they are if I am on the shoulder. One day I was bicycling between Ft Walton Beach FL and Destin FL. There was a patch of asphalt like that. I was cruising along and hit a good sized stone I didn't see. It shot me left about 2 feet. Couple that with a motorist brush passing and it's a problem!

Then there's the right hook issue. People will pass you and turn right in front of you. They rarely do that when you are in the lane.

There are other more nuanced reasons that I'd probably struggle to explain.

For most bicyclists it's a lesser of the evils issue. As strange as this sounds, being in the middle of the lane typically results in safer interactions than relegating yourself to the edge. Especially for cyclists who employ high vis and lights.
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Old 08-14-2018, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
The first reason is that when you are riding on the shoulder vehicles that might enter or cross the roadway are less likely to see you, or if they see you they are less likely to treat you as traffic. I have had people look right at me and pull out. Fortunately one of the benefits of a bike is that we are traveling more slowly and our stopping distances are much shorter. But the threat of not being seen in that situation is very real.

The second issue is specific to that shoulder. It is very narrow. If I position myself in the center of that and hold a perfect line the left edge of my handlebar is very close to the travel lane. When motorists see you on the shoulder, they often won't bother with moving as far left as they reasonably can. I have found that when I am in the lane motorists are much more likely to give me the 3 feet required by law than they are if I am on the shoulder. One day I was bicycling between Ft Walton Beach FL and Destin FL. There was a patch of asphalt like that. I was cruising along and hit a good sized stone I didn't see. It shot me left about 2 feet. Couple that with a motorist brush passing and it's a problem!

Then there's the right hook issue. People will pass you and turn right in front of you. They rarely do that when you are in the lane.

There are other more nuanced reasons that I'd probably struggle to explain.

For most bicyclists it's a lesser of the evils issue. As strange as this sounds, being in the middle of the lane typically results in safer interactions than relegating yourself to the edge. Especially for cyclists who employ high vis and lights.
I guess that makes some sense. Can you explain never pulling off to let stacked up traffic pass? I think that is the one thing that universally pisses off motorist more than anything else. Also, why cyclist won't use green ways along side roads and prefer playing in traffic instead. I get some are heavy with pedestrians, but many are not, especially as it related to cyclist traveling during commuting hours.
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Old 08-14-2018, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by NCSUboater View Post
agreed. We have tons of greenways connecting downtown to the burbs that are usually empty. Most are brand new. I don't get it



I have seen cyclists blow through stop signs and lights regularly, especially downtown. Usually they cheat over to the far right on the shoulder such that if there is a car coming they can theoretically not become a hood ornament. I have not done detailed studies, just what I have witnessed. The point is sharing the road means obeying traffic laws, and cyclists in general seem to think they are above them. A much larger group WILL stop at a red light, and proceed to blow through it after looking. That REALLY pisses me off..
If I am behind a group of cyclists who pull up to a traffic light, I'd rather them run it. That way they are clipped in and up to speed by the time the light turns green.

I was on Jefferson Highway between Kenner and Metairie one day when the bike path was closed due to construction. I was waiting at a red light when the vehicle behind me honked. He wanted me to go, so he could take a right.

So here we have two scenarios. One where cyclists break the law and it helps the motorist and another where the cyclists is a hindrance for obeying the law. We also have two different expectations form motorists. One doesn't want the cyclist breaking the law and the other does.

When I am a motorist I do not give a schidt what laws a bicyclist breaks as long as it does not affect me. I don't care what laws any road users break as long as it doesn't affect me or endanger folks.

I am going to post a map image and set up a scenario for you and I want you to tell me what to do.

I am going to ride my bicycle from my home on Pasadena to the bike path along the river at the end of Central Ave. I am going to go from Pasadena to Houma Ave which turns into central. I have to cross 4 lane divided West Metairie Ave. West Metairie Ave can have fairly heavy traffic at times. The lanes are so narrow that even if a bicycle is hugging the right curb tight a motorist can't pass without moving into the left of the travel lanes. If I turn right (west) off of Pasadena onto W Metairie I have to play with traffic all the way down to N Woodlawn then hit the U turn and come back all the way to Houma. Or with the way the two nearest traffic lights are timed, I can most often make my right onto W Metairie, cut across the U turn right there then do a quick 50 yard dash the wrong way in the East bound lane W Metairie lane and hit Houma.

When I ride, my decisions are made with safety as a first priority, minimal interference as a second priority and compliance with the law as a last concern.

When I ride that route, I never go down to N Woodlawn. I always to the quick sprint the wrong way. To me it is safer in that it keeps me on the road with high traffic for a much shorter period of time and I do not inconvenience a soul in doing so.

What do you think I should do there?

Oh, there is a third option. I can put my bike in the back of the truck and drive it the 2.5 miles to the bike path. That makes me a part of motor vehicle congestion on W Metairie though. And I really hate driving that short of a distance to go for a pedal.

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Old 08-14-2018, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by autobaun70 View Post
I guess that makes some sense. Can you explain never pulling off to let stacked up traffic pass? I think that is the one thing that universally pisses off motorist more than anything else. Also, why cyclist won't use green ways along side roads and prefer playing in traffic instead. I get some are heavy with pedestrians, but many are not, especially as it related to cyclist traveling during commuting hours.
You know me better than that by now. No I cannot explain that. It pisses me off, and it does create ill will that at some point will likely influence a motorists interaction with me. Some greenways are damn near unusable due to the number of pedestrians. Others, like to ones I use on a regular basis are fantastic. One thing that I have noticed about a number of cyclist is that they don't want to be inconvenienced by a pedestrian for a split second, but don't mind inconveniencing a motorist for a that same split second. They will always use the excuse that pedestrians are unpredictable.

Pedestrians are very unpredictable on the path. I have seen 2 bike pedestrian collisions that pedestrians with their heads up their ass caused. I have also been rolling along coming up behind a pedestrian who without looking over his shoulder looped around and started coming back toward me. If I had been passing him at the same rate as the cyclist about 300 yards in front of me did, there would have been a nasty crash. When I come up behind a pedestrian I scrub my speed to a bare minimum speed disparity. I announce my presence, then ease around the pedestrian. Most of them have buds in both ears. Many never hear me. With me going just over walking speed I have time to react if they do something stupid. Pedestrians are remarkably oblivious when they are on the path. Where I ride there aren't many pedestrians, so I don't mind slowing. In some places paths are so full of pedestrians that to bicycle defensively I'd have to go the same speed they are.

It's a give and take proposition. Some people don't want to give. I don't mind at all. When on the path and someone can hear me as I announce my presence, I always say something polite as I pass. When I see kids I will always say something like "cool helmet" or "I like your bike." These people I encounter on the path are motorists too. In addition to just trying to be a friendly person I try to foster good will. Any kid that is out getting exercise gets a thumbs up from me. Much better in my opinion than X box.

To summarize, sometimes there are greenways that are not a suitable option. More often than not though, that's just an excuse for a cyclist who doesn't want to slow down for a pedestrian.
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:01 PM
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Every time I see a person exercising on or sling a busy roadway wearing earbuds I cringe. Just asking to get crunched or mugged.
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
You know me better than that by now. No I cannot explain that. It pisses me off, and it does create ill will that at some point will likely influence a motorists interaction with me. Some greenways are damn near unusable due to the number of pedestrians. Others, like to ones I use on a regular basis are fantastic. One thing that I have noticed about a number of cyclist is that they don't want to be inconvenienced by a pedestrian for a split second, but don't mind inconveniencing a motorist for a that same split second. They will always use the excuse that pedestrians are unpredictable.

Pedestrians are very unpredictable on the path. I have seen 2 bike pedestrian collisions that pedestrians with their heads up their ass caused. I have also been rolling along coming up behind a pedestrian who without looking over his shoulder looped around and started coming back toward me. If I had been passing him at the same rate as the cyclist about 300 yards in front of me did, there would have been a nasty crash. When I come up behind a pedestrian I scrub my speed to a bare minimum speed disparity. I announce my presence, then ease around the pedestrian. Most of them have buds in both ears. Many never hear me. With me going just over walking speed I have time to react if they do something stupid. Pedestrians are remarkably oblivious when they are on the path. Where I ride there aren't many pedestrians, so I don't mind slowing. In some places paths are so full of pedestrians that to bicycle defensively I'd have to go the same speed they are.

It's a give and take proposition. Some people don't want to give. I don't mind at all. When on the path and someone can hear me as I announce my presence, I always say something polite as I pass. When I see kids I will always say something like "cool helmet" or "I like your bike." These people I encounter on the path are motorists too. In addition to just trying to be a friendly person I try to foster good will. Any kid that is out getting exercise gets a thumbs up from me. Much better in my opinion than X box.

To summarize, sometimes there are greenways that are not a suitable option. More often than not though, that's just an excuse for a cyclist who doesn't want to slow down for a pedestrian.
This.

I mostly ride off road but when I do ride my road bike (rare) it's generally in traffic. Pedestrians are too unpredicatble, if I am riding on a shared use path I don't give warning when I'm passing from behind which scares the shit out of people sometime because they are in la la land. Too many times I have given warning and the person turns into a squirrel in traffic. Safer to just quickly pass without warning.

And as a driver and a cyclist nothing pisses me off more than riders who seem to deliberately ignore cars behind them, you damn well know when there are cars behind you. To hold a lane when you have the option to get over and let them pass is just a dick move. Don't get me started about the Saturday morning warriors riding 4 abreast down 2 lane county roads. A few years ago I was on slightly curvy county road and came across a group of 8 guys riding 4 abreast, taking up the entire lane. This is a 50mph road mind you, just windy enough to have a double yellow. These tools would not yield, and I was then driving a truck on super swampers so they damn well heard me. I was ready to rage. It's about the same as douchebags that anchor in the channel to fish!
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
If I am behind a group of cyclists who pull up to a traffic light, I'd rather them run it. That way they are clipped in and up to speed by the time the light turns green.

I was on Jefferson Highway between Kenner and Metairie one day when the bike path was closed due to construction. I was waiting at a red light when the vehicle behind me honked. He wanted me to go, so he could take a right.

So here we have two scenarios. One where cyclists break the law and it helps the motorist and another where the cyclists is a hindrance for obeying the law. We also have two different expectations form motorists. One doesn't want the cyclist breaking the law and the other does.

When I am a motorist I do not give a schidt what laws a bicyclist breaks as long as it does not affect me. I don't care what laws any road users break as long as it doesn't affect me or endanger folks.

I am going to post a map image and set up a scenario for you and I want you to tell me what to do.

I am going to ride my bicycle from my home on Pasadena to the bike path along the river at the end of Central Ave. I am going to go from Pasadena to Houma Ave which turns into central. I have to cross 4 lane divided West Metairie Ave. West Metairie Ave can have fairly heavy traffic at times. The lanes are so narrow that even if a bicycle is hugging the right curb tight a motorist can't pass without moving into the left of the travel lanes. If I turn right (west) off of Pasadena onto W Metairie I have to play with traffic all the way down to N Woodlawn then hit the U turn and come back all the way to Houma. Or with the way the two nearest traffic lights are timed, I can most often make my right onto W Metairie, cut across the U turn right there then do a quick 50 yard dash the wrong way in the East bound lane W Metairie lane and hit Houma.

When I ride, my decisions are made with safety as a first priority, minimal interference as a second priority and compliance with the law as a last concern.

When I ride that route, I never go down to N Woodlawn. I always to the quick sprint the wrong way. To me it is safer in that it keeps me on the road with high traffic for a much shorter period of time and I do not inconvenience a soul in doing so.

What do you think I should do there?

Oh, there is a third option. I can put my bike in the back of the truck and drive it the 2.5 miles to the bike path. That makes me a part of motor vehicle congestion on W Metairie though. And I really hate driving that short of a distance to go for a pedal.

https://www.google.com/maps/search/p...90.1760632,17z
I can put my bike in the back of the truck and drive it the 2.5 miles to the bike path.
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Qb1rdman View Post
I can put my bike in the back of the truck and drive it the 2.5 miles to the bike path.
And become a part of traffic congestion!
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
And become a part of traffic congestion!
If it's that congested then you DEFINITELY shouldn't be riding there.
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Qb1rdman View Post
If it's that congested then you DEFINITELY shouldn't be riding there.
With the bicycle I have found a way to avoid the congestion. I can't do it in the truck. But hey, if your position is that you would rather add vehicles to traffic congestion than have a bicycle break the law and it affect nobody, that's your choice. That's why I added that as an option. I am always curious what people think. Would you care to explain your reasoning?
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
And become a part of traffic congestion!
Vehicles should share the road with bicycles, right?
That makes bicycles part of traffic....ie part of congestion.

This whole thread is you trying to convince others (and probably yourself) of the great choices you make to ride a bike vs. drive even though you readily admit riding a bike is inherently unsafer.

No sympathy and no empathy.
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul Barnard View Post
With the bicycle I have found a way to avoid the congestion. I can't do it in the truck. But hey, if your position is that you would rather add vehicles to traffic congestion than have a bicycle break the law and it affect nobody, that's your choice. That's why I added that as an option. I am always curious what people think. Would you care to explain your reasoning?
Those roads were engineered for motor vehicles and while they may sometimes be appropriate for pedestrians, cyclists, and even horses if there's congestion then IMHO you picked the wrong time (or place) to go for bike ride. That's just what I would do if I was in your shoes.
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by olyveoil View Post
Vehicles should share the road with bicycles, right?
That makes bicycles part of traffic....ie part of congestion.

This whole thread is you trying to convince others (and probably yourself) of the great choices you make to ride a bike vs. drive even though you readily admit riding a bike is inherently unsafer.

No sympathy and no empathy.
So your choice is that I should bicycle on the congested part of the roadway. And your reasoning sounds like "because phuc you." Noted!

Where did I admit riding a bike is inherently more unsafe?
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by acme54321 View Post
This.

I mostly ride off road but when I do ride my road bike (rare) it's generally in traffic. Pedestrians are too unpredicatble, if I am riding on a shared use path I don't give warning when I'm passing from behind which scares the shit out of people sometime because they are in la la land. Too many times I have given warning and the person turns into a squirrel in traffic. Safer to just quickly pass without warning.

And as a driver and a cyclist nothing pisses me off more than riders who seem to deliberately ignore cars behind them, you damn well know when there are cars behind you. To hold a lane when you have the option to get over and let them pass is just a dick move. Don't get me started about the Saturday morning warriors riding 4 abreast down 2 lane county roads. A few years ago I was on slightly curvy county road and came across a group of 8 guys riding 4 abreast, taking up the entire lane. This is a 50mph road mind you, just windy enough to have a double yellow. These tools would not yield, and I was then driving a truck on super swampers so they damn well heard me. I was ready to rage. It's about the same as douchebags that anchor in the channel to fish!
pretty much my bitch. We have a big, active cycling community here. The specific group is headed up by a guy not too far from my house. They have a knack for screwing up every rural winding road that I frequent and have to travel, and best I can tell could care less about people that need to get places.
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Old 08-14-2018, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Qb1rdman View Post
Those roads were engineered for motor vehicles and while they may sometimes be appropriate for pedestrians, cyclists, and even horses if there's congestion then IMHO you picked the wrong time (or place) to go for bike ride. That's just what I would do if I was in your shoes.

Guess what parking lots were engineered for? Parking, yet somehow pedestrians and autos can manage to successfully share the space. The bike path was engineered for bicycling, but somehow I successfully share it with pedestrian, strollers, skaters and such. Guess what shipping channels were engineered for? The Gulfport Ship Channel ain't dredged to a controlling depth of 35 feet for pleasure boats. But I have successfully shared it with all manner of watercraft. It's crazy how when people aren't dicks we can peacefully coexist huh?
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