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Life Insurance

Old 11-07-2014, 01:31 PM
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Default Life Insurance

Are there any THT members a life insurance agentin the South Florida area. Or does anyone have a good insurance agent.
Not happy with my current policy.

Thanks in advance for replies
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Old 11-07-2014, 01:43 PM
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Old 11-07-2014, 01:51 PM
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I was skeptical myself but the best answer for me was the most simple.

Select Quote

I was skeptical but it was recommend by Suzie Orman. I have able to get a 20 year term policy for 750k for 300 a year with ING.

With something straight forward like term life insurance I dont know if you need an agent.
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Old 11-07-2014, 02:09 PM
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Term insurance is real easy. Just contact an independent agent who represents the majority of carriers and they can produce a list of premiums from smallest to largest for your review. OR you can pay more (typically) for a exclusive company like Allstate or Northwestern Mutual if you like.
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Old 11-07-2014, 02:54 PM
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I did equote and Zander Insurance, and ended up getting the cheapest policy through an independent financial advisor who also sold insurance. 20 year term with an AAA rated company.
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Old 11-07-2014, 03:08 PM
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I've always wondered why they call it "life" insurance , when ya gotta be dead for your beneficiary to collect it. Just sayin'...
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Old 11-07-2014, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Boataholic View Post
I've always wondered why they call it "life" insurance , when ya gotta be dead for your beneficiary to collect it. Just sayin'...
Not necessarily true. If you work with a true professional who will spend the time helping you figure out your true needs, you may find that term insurance may only be a part of what you need. There are products available that provide tax leverage, funding for Long term care or chronic illness needs, funding for family members with special needs, etc.

While many people only buy term insurance, they may be sorry in the future. For example, if you are 40 years old and buy a 20 year term policy, can you be absolutely sure that you will not need or want to provide financially for anyone or have any debt that should be protected after age 60?

You'd be amazed at how many people purchase life insurance in their 60's 70's and even 80's.

Also, if you get the right advice, you will not pay any more than buying it directly from a general agency who advertises on the internet. However, you may have a better chance of "doing it right" the first time. Remember, as with a lot of things - if you buy it cheap, you often buy it twice.
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Old 11-07-2014, 07:47 PM
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I found these to be insightful and the numbers do make sense.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIdG7cwHo04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkUkZFczj0A
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Old 11-08-2014, 03:47 AM
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Decent advice on this thread but no one knows what your needs are or why the existing policy is in place.

If it is business related, you may be able to run the situation by your CPA. If it is personal, a fee-only advisor may be able to help determine your needs. Then you can determine whether to buy direct or through a local agent. There is a difference in needing a policy to fund a business buy-sell agreement from one in place to fund your family's future should you die prematurely.

I know a lot of insurance agents. Their job is to sell a product for a commission. While they generally have decent knowledge of the products, they are not independent and have an inherent conflict of interest. Most do not know the true economics of the products over their entire cycle. Some are worse than others. Better to identify your needs independently in my mind.
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Old 11-08-2014, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Sprockets View Post
Decent advice on this thread but no one knows what your needs are or why the existing policy is in place.

If it is business related, you may be able to run the situation by your CPA. If it is personal, a fee-only advisor may be able to help determine your needs. Then you can determine whether to buy direct or through a local agent. There is a difference in needing a policy to fund a business buy-sell agreement from one in place to fund your family's future should you die prematurely.

I know a lot of insurance agents. Their job is to sell a product for a commission. While they generally have decent knowledge of the products, they are not independent and have an inherent conflict of interest. Most do not know the true economics of the products over their entire cycle. Some are worse than others. Better to identify your needs independently in my mind.
All due respect I take issue with the last paragraph here. I am an independent insurance agent. When I work with a client it is my job to try and understand their situation, their needs and then present them with options. Assuming they are honest and realistic we can help them make a decision. If done right, the process is educational for everyone and the client usually gets a good mix of long term income and debt protection.

There's a market and process for everyone. Some will do well by pointing and clicking, others will do better by sitting with someone who can understand the needs and make a plan. Whatever the route someone takes be sure to get it done, I hear too many stories of "he didn't have the right coverage" or "his coverage lapsed".
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Avid 24 View Post
All due respect I take issue with the last paragraph here. I am an independent insurance agent... If done right, the process is educational for everyone and the client usually gets a good mix of long term income and debt protection.
So are you an agent or a CFP? My experience has been that agents are one step above used care salesman. And I have spoken with my share over the years.

Sprockets could not be more on point.
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:23 AM
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I am an agent but have my CFP designation. I also have a used car lot out back.

I am sorry to hear you've never worked with a professional.
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by captbone View Post
I found these to be insightful and the numbers do make sense.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIdG7cwHo04

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkUkZFczj0A
Man, she fooled you just like she does to middle income america everyday. Of course she has to cater to middle income america because she is a talking head and needs to keep her TV ratings and book sells up. High income people do not watch TV for investment and insurance advice.

Let's destroy the first video now: So lets take that 900/month, $10800 a year (you know her buy term and invest the difference idea for the wife) and lets look at what it would be in 30 years. a 4% ROR over 30 years gives us $629K. Maybe she is referring to a Dave Ramsey 10% return stock when she quotes $1M in 30 years. I use 4% because that is a good after tax return. That is the equivalent to 7% ROR before tax roughly. Tell me the last time you had an investment get 7% for a 30 year period.

So what about her Whole Life policy? Well in 30 years, the Death Benefit would be $1.6M, with $690K in Cash Value. Oh, by the way, she can access that Cash Value strategically and not pay tax on it. Of course at some point her death benefit would go down if she is taking money out of it, but Suze says she doesn't need any life insurance after 65 any way, so any life insurance left when she dies is just a bonus right?

I'd take the 690K in Cash Value vs the $629K in an investment account, because the cash value will be more flexible to use at a tax advantaged rate.

I'm not saying Whole Life is for everybody, I'm just saying people like Orman and Dave Ramsey really piss me off when it comes to insurance advice.
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mattusher View Post
Man, she fooled you just like she does to middle income america everyday. Of course she has to cater to middle income america because she is a talking head and needs to keep her TV ratings and book sells up. High income people do not watch TV for investment and insurance advice.

Let's destroy the first video now: So lets take that 900/month, $10800 a year (you know her buy term and invest the difference idea for the wife) and lets look at what it would be in 30 years. a 4% ROR over 30 years gives us $629K. Maybe she is referring to a Dave Ramsey 10% return stock when she quotes $1M in 30 years. I use 4% because that is a good after tax return. That is the equivalent to 7% ROR before tax roughly. Tell me the last time you had an investment get 7% for a 30 year period.

So what about her Whole Life policy? Well in 30 years, the Death Benefit would be $1.6M, with $690K in Cash Value. Oh, by the way, she can access that Cash Value strategically and not pay tax on it. Of course at some point her death benefit would go down if she is taking money out of it, but Suze says she doesn't need any life insurance after 65 any way, so any life insurance left when she dies is just a bonus right?

I'd take the 690K in Cash Value vs the $629K in an investment account, because the cash value will be more flexible to use at a tax advantaged rate.

I'm not saying Whole Life is for everybody, I'm just saying people like Orman and Dave Ramsey really piss me off when it comes to insurance advice.
I'm with Suze on this one although I can't stand her voice and don't always agree. Your 4% ror is laughable. I get that in dividends alone and yes, I average well I've 7% total return. It is not that hard to do...
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Welshtrustee View Post
I'm with Suze on this one although I can't stand her voice and don't always agree. Your 4% ror is laughable. I get that in dividends alone and yes, I average well I've 7% total return. It is not that hard to do...
so what is your after tax rate of return?
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Old 11-08-2014, 06:10 AM
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For me, it's 85% of the 4.13% of dividends PLUS my appreciation which over the last 8 years or so has been avg. about 5.25%. So, I'm avg. about 8.75%. I won't pay tax on the appreciation until I sell and even then, it's only the cap gains rate.

Exclude the crash and my all in pre tax ror is nearly 11% for the last 4 years. So yes, assuming 4% is laughable. Although for someone who can't stomach the market, life insurance is less volatile, I'll give you that.
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Old 11-08-2014, 06:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Welshtrustee View Post
For me, it's 85% of the 4.13% of dividends PLUS my appreciation which over the last 8 years or so has been avg. about 5.25%. So, I'm avg. about 8.75%. I won't pay tax on the appreciation until I sell and even then, it's only the cap gains rate.

Exclude the crash and my all in pre tax ror is nearly 11% for the last 4 years. So yes, assuming 4% is laughable. Although for someone who can't stomach the market, life insurance is less volatile, I'll give you that.
That's good for you. However, I would not call 4% laughable. Like I said, we aren't talking about a 4 year or 8 year time period. We are talking about 30 years. Also, we can't exclude crashes in real life nor predict when they will happen. Plus my 4% is after tax, so for your sake, let's just call it 7% if that makes you before better (of course before tax).
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Old 11-08-2014, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by mattusher View Post
That's good for you. However, I would not call 4% laughable. Like I said, we aren't talking about a 4 year or 8 year time period. We are talking about 30 years. Also, we can't exclude crashes in real life nor predict when they will happen. Plus my 4% is after tax, so for your sake, let's just call it 7% if that makes you before better (of course before tax).
You need a basic math refresher. Cap gains is 15%. Your 4% after tax rate is equivalent to 4.70%, not 7% for me. I only need to earn 4.7% to be the same as your after tax rate of 4. Far cry from 7. I'm actually almost doubling your whole life return, including the recession.

These are the facts. Choosing between whole life and this investment strategy boils down to risk tolerance.

Hell, my after tax ror is 3.5% and I know I'll pick up at least 50 bps through appreciation over the long haul.... Probably much more.
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Old 11-08-2014, 08:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mattusher View Post
Man, she fooled you just like she does to middle income america everyday. Of course she has to cater to middle income america because she is a talking head and needs to keep her TV ratings and book sells up. High income people do not watch TV for investment and insurance advice.

Let's destroy the first video now: So lets take that 900/month, $10800 a year (you know her buy term and invest the difference idea for the wife) and lets look at what it would be in 30 years. a 4% ROR over 30 years gives us $629K. Maybe she is referring to a Dave Ramsey 10% return stock when she quotes $1M in 30 years. I use 4% because that is a good after tax return. That is the equivalent to 7% ROR before tax roughly. Tell me the last time you had an investment get 7% for a 30 year period.

So what about her Whole Life policy? Well in 30 years, the Death Benefit would be $1.6M, with $690K in Cash Value. Oh, by the way, she can access that Cash Value strategically and not pay tax on it. Of course at some point her death benefit would go down if she is taking money out of it, but Suze says she doesn't need any life insurance after 65 any way, so any life insurance left when she dies is just a bonus right?

I'd take the 690K in Cash Value vs the $629K in an investment account, because the cash value will be more flexible to use at a tax advantaged rate.

I'm not saying Whole Life is for everybody, I'm just saying people like Orman and Dave Ramsey really piss me off when it comes to insurance advice.
I don't have the time to go through every point of your post, but what rate of return are you using in your whole life cash value projection of $690k? And what tax rate are you "assuming" when projecting a 4% after tax return?
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Old 11-08-2014, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Welshtrustee View Post
You need a basic math refresher. Cap gains is 15%. Your 4% after tax rate is equivalent to 4.70%, not 7% for me. I only need to earn 4.7% to be the same as your after tax rate of 4. Far cry from 7. I'm actually almost doubling your whole life return, including the recession.

These are the facts. Choosing between whole life and this investment strategy boils down to risk tolerance.

Hell, my after tax ror is 3.5% and I know I'll pick up at least 50 bps through appreciation over the long haul.... Probably much more.
Take it down a notch buddy. I never insulted you. You are correct about risk tolerance. Again, I never had an argument with you. My point is related to the posting of the 2 Suze Orman videos, stating that her advice is not always correct. Or should I say, I'm not going to let Suze Orman tell me how much and what kind of life insurance I should have. I would leave that to the advice of trusted advisors, including CPA's, CFP's etc.
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