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forfeiture laws- yay or nay?

Old 06-13-2014, 04:55 PM
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Default forfeiture laws- yay or nay?

I personally don't agree with these laws except in a few exceptional cases. I think they've gone WAY beyond their original intention. I'm sure you have read about the cases in Tennessee where cops are confiscating large sums of money just because...well..someone happens to be carrying it.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/institut...ng-for-profit/

What say you?
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Old 06-13-2014, 04:59 PM
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It is a dangerous thing when the criminal justice system "makes" money for itself.
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:11 PM
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I'd say they are criminals with badges
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SeaSquid631 View Post
I'd say they are criminals with badges
Aim a little higher.
"You're only a reflection of your subordinates."
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Old 06-13-2014, 05:17 PM
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If they can't prove it isn't your money they have no business taking it. There is a thread here lately where a judge deemed $5K to be excessive. The burden of proof doesn't fall on the holder. It falls on those who want to prove it isn't yours.
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Old 06-13-2014, 06:35 PM
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I have never seen money that wasn't taken from the dope man or other criminal. Btw when police take it.it is only seized, a judge decides if it's forfeited not the police.

ALL seizures done under this act, the owner can protest....
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by NCummins View Post
Aim a little higher.
"You're only a reflection of your subordinates."
Did you mean to type superiors?
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
I have never seen money that wasn't taken from the dope man or other criminal. Btw when police take it.it is only seized, a judge decides if it's forfeited not the police.

ALL seizures done under this act, the owner can protest....
Good go know.

What is your opinion on forfeitures when the suspect is not a "dope man" and
there are no prior convictions?
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Old 06-13-2014, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Qb1rdman View Post
Good go know.

What is your opinion on forfeitures when the suspect is not a "dope man" and
there are no prior convictions?
It totally depends on the situation.... be careful on your limitations... Border Patrol seizes Millions in money at the border from vehicles headed back South. The LEO'S there seize with no PC or reason and those are all righteous cases putting the hurt on the cartels..

Realistically, if you find large amounts of cash, it is an indicator something ain't right, IMHO.
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
Realistically, if you find large amounts of cash, it is an indicator something ain't right, IMHO.
Sure. Something like theft of private property, at gunpoint, by police departments who have no evidence a crime has been committed. That sure ain't right.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/institut...-with-a-crime/

Why does simply carrying what someone else considers a large amount of cash make it acceptable for your money to be stolen by armed agents of the government? Does a hunch that "something ain't right" overcome the protections of the 4th Amendment?

Just kidding, there's no such thing as the 4th Amendment. Hasn't been for years. Apparently "we the people" consider it an unnecessary luxury in these times.
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Old 06-13-2014, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by V13 View Post
Sure. Something like theft of private property, at gunpoint, by police departments who have no evidence a crime has been committed. That sure ain't right.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/institut...-with-a-crime/

Why does simply carrying what someone else considers a large amount of cash make it acceptable for your money to be stolen by armed agents of the government? Does a hunch that "something ain't right" overcome the protections of the 4th Amendment?

Just kidding, there's no such thing as the 4th Amendment. Hasn't been for years. Apparently "we the people" consider it an unnecessary luxury in these times.
Your entitlled to your opinion. I base mine on experience and i have never ran into wealthy dude carrying a bunch of cash but i guess it can happen that a multi millionare is just carrying around cash......


Curious have you had cash or property seized before? If so, do tell so I know how you were wronged?

I will be bowing out as i am not looking to cat fight, later on gents...
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Old 06-14-2014, 05:02 AM
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While I highly doubt very many forfeitures are from innocent people I also think the possiblity of taking property from a single innocent person is too much.

The end of the article is most telling. The state legislators could fix the problem but choose not to or worse, as in the snippet about Utah, change the law to allow it. Could the cops selectively enforce the law to avoid much of the controversy? Sure they could. It would be better if they didn't have the choice.
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Old 06-14-2014, 05:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
Your entitlled to your opinion. I base mine on experience and i have never ran into wealthy dude carrying a bunch of cash but i guess it can happen that a multi millionare is just carrying around cash......


Curious have you had cash or property seized before? If so, do tell so I know how you were wronged?

I will be bowing out as i am not looking to cat fight, later on gents...
Cracker, I've said it before, I'll say it again: I consider you one of the good guys, I appreciate your perspective, I learn from your posts, and I sometimes change my opinion based on others' reasoning. I don't consider friendly discussions, from differing points of view, as a cat fight. I do my best to be civil and respectful of others on here - we all have to put up with a ton of BS in life, I see no need to artificially create more.

As to your personal inquiry: I've had relatively few encounters with police in my life. Never been arrested, never been detained, never been searched. Frankly, I discipline myself, so that folks like you aren't required to. Haven't had so much as a traffic ticket in 20 years.

I have had the displeasure, a couple of times over many years, in dealing with cops who had more infatuation with their own authority than they had brains. More often, I've encountered cops who appeared to know their job and to do it well.

As to my previous post: you know I think the drug war is misguided, and I think these cash seizures are a lazy way to prosecute that war by simply assuming, without proof, that someone is guilty of a crime because they have a large amount of cash.

My issue is the policy of confiscating the cash without other evidence of criminal activity. I believe the objective becomes the cash, and not the law enforcement. I'd cite the well known example of the old couple's ranch in California, confiscated because they found a few pot plants growing in a corner.

I don't like what has become of the 4th Amendment. Like the rest of the Bill of Rights, there was a reason for it.

Have a good day and stay safe.
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Old 06-14-2014, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
I have never seen money that wasn't taken from the dope man or other criminal. Btw when police take it.it is only seized, a judge decides if it's forfeited not the police.

ALL seizures done under this act, the owner can protest....
This.

I have handled hundreds of seizure cases over the years. My experience has been that about 1 in 10 are arguable and 1 in 100 are abusive. In FL, a person who has property seized has 15 days to request an adversarial preliminary hearing. At that hearing, the judge decides whether there is PC to believe that said property was used in or was proceeds from illegal activity. If the seizing agency loses that hearing, they must pay attorney fees up to $1000.00.

Now, if the property seized is a large amount of cash ($100,000+), then the feds step in and the odds go way down. For some reason, the feds rarely lose.
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Old 06-14-2014, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by tokinred View Post
This.

I have handled hundreds of seizure cases over the years. My experience has been that about 1 in 10 are arguable and 1 in 100 are abusive. In FL, a person who has property seized has 15 days to request an adversarial preliminary hearing. At that hearing, the judge decides whether there is PC to believe that said property was used in or was proceeds from illegal activity. If the seizing agency loses that hearing, they must pay attorney fees up to $1000.00.

Now, if the property seized is a large amount of cash ($100,000+), then the feds step in and the odds go way down. For some reason, the feds rarely lose.
Thank you Marcos

I am not in a unit that does this much but when i have done it or I have been around others it was clearly money, cars or property that was seized was part of the illegal activity but again a judge decides..

Like many tools LE has we as if we abuse it we lose it but the judge is the safeguard..and I believe in the system and know good and hard working attorneys like Tokinred and others are important as the system IS NOT perfect by no means

V13, sorry if I came off strong on you. Thes discussions tend to always go badly because of arguements without muuch factuial basis but I understand the concern and I dont see how you can change this Act without impacting all the illegal activity they stop at places like the boarder with little evidence
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Old 06-14-2014, 06:21 AM
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Marcos??? You called me by another lawyer's name.......that hurts.

The 3-4 that i felt were abusive were all young cops thinking they were saving the world. The judge set them straight and they shook my hand at the end of the hearing. I am happy to report that abusive, lying, cheating LEOs are pretty damn rare. I am sad to report that abusive, lying, cheating lawyers are pretty damn common.
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Old 06-14-2014, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by tokinred View Post
Marcos??? You called me by another lawyer's name.......that hurts.

The 3-4 that i felt were abusive were all young cops thinking they were saving the world. The judge set them straight and they shook my hand at the end of the hearing. I am happy to report that abusive, lying, cheating LEOs are pretty damn rare. I am sad to report that abusive, lying, cheating lawyers are pretty damn common.
I apologize, its early for me and I suck at remembering names, i am a face kind of guy...
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Old 06-14-2014, 06:28 AM
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I am happy to report that abusive, lying, cheating LEOs are pretty damn rare
Based on what you usually read here, you would think every cop is a dirty/bad cop.
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Old 06-14-2014, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
I have never seen money that wasn't taken from the dope man or other criminal. Btw when police take it.it is only seized, a judge decides if it's forfeited not the police.

ALL seizures done under this act, the owner can protest....
I'm fine with seizing money along with drugs (illegal activities) but if its just cash I am carrying, why is OK to seize it? Lets say I am getting a deal on a $50K boat by paying cash and get pulled over on the way to the transaction? Should 1. It be taken regardless? 2. Taken if I can't prove its legitimate? 3. Left alone because I am doing nothing wrong?
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Old 06-14-2014, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Shag View Post
I'm fine with seizing money along with drugs (illegal activities) but if its just cash I am carrying, why is OK to seize it? Lets say I am getting a deal on a $50K boat by paying cash and get pulled over on the way to the transaction? Should 1. It be taken regardless? 2. Taken if I can't prove its legitimate? 3. Left alone because I am doing nothing wrong?
It is not ok to seize it and it will be left alone because you aren't doing anything wrong. If it were taken, you'd get it back plus some extra for your hassle, especially in your example.
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