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When is it OK to pull your weapon and/or shoot someone

Old 05-14-2013, 06:31 PM
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Default When is it OK to pull your weapon and/or shoot someone

As a follow up to the thread of the white family that got beat up by the blacks.

The black dude told whitey that he wasn't going to get out alive, would that be grounds to shoot the black dude if he didn't show a weapon? I have my concealed carry and the education I got totally discouraged pulling out your weapon for fear of YOU being arrested.

Is there a "cut & dried" circumstance where you are justified to pull your weapon and/or shoot them? Personally I'm afraid that I will hesitate when threatened because I'm not sure what to do and the other guy draws and shoots me first.

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Old 05-14-2013, 06:35 PM
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That's a clear threat to life.

In MS that guy is dead; and no one goes to jail.



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Old 05-14-2013, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Snapper Head View Post
That's a clear threat to life.

In MS that guy is dead; and no one goes to jail.



Big Al
In your opinion Al, does someone threatening to beat you up but doesn't show a weapon grounds for you to feel your life is threatened? If I had someone say that to me I would draw down on them and shoot them for sure if they didn't back down.

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Old 05-14-2013, 06:46 PM
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Russ, that why imo law obiding people lose or at best at a disadvantage from criminals at the onset. Criminals don't have the issue of "is this the right thing to do" or "what are the repercussions from my actions" mentality. They don't have morals and don't give a damn. Already they have the advantage in a bad situation. The white guy in the other thread had many strikes against him from the start. I've had similiar discussions with co-workers about this and we mostly all agree on this. It sucks.

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Old 05-14-2013, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RussH View Post
As a follow up to the thread of the white family that got beat up by the blacks.

The black dude told whitey that he wasn't going to get out alive, would that be grounds to shoot the black dude if he didn't show a weapon? I have my concealed carry and the education I got totally discouraged pulling out your weapon for fear of YOU being arrested.

Is there a "cut & dried" circumstance where you are justified to pull your weapon and/or shoot them? Personally I'm afraid that I will hesitate when threatened because I'm not sure what to do and the other guy draws and shoots me first.

Russ
I'd say no....that's just talking smack.

"cut & dried" isn't easy either because laws vary widely.

The best advice I have is to disregard the smack talk and the law; fire when you think your life is on the line.
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:52 PM
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white E I think thats grounds for a cap in his ass LOL
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Old 05-14-2013, 06:54 PM
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I'm sure this one will be popcorn worthy.

Not to say I don't have compassion for the guy who got his ass whipped, but I keep thinking WTF was he doing there in the first place. I've lived in both the Miami / Lauderdale and the Washington D.C. areas without ever having to make the decision you propose. I'm an average middle class white guy, plenty big enough to hold my own if the need arrises, but not looking for anything either. Stopping in the hood for fuel at night doesn't seem like a good choice. Putting yourself in the position where you have to do so seems pretty F-ing stupid.

There is an old saying about pilots, which is the definition of a Superior Pilot. A Superior Pilot is the pilot who uses his superior judgement to avoid putting himself in a situation which requires the use of his superior skills. - - - I think concealed carry is a lot the same way. The gun is the choice of last resort. It's pretty stupid to knowingly put yourself in that position for no good reason.

As for your question, I think that is a question of cost / benefit that each man has to make for himself. Only you know when to pull the trigger, as only you will deal with the aftermath.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:17 PM
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Sucks all around usually but drawing on someone that is unarmed, and threatening to beat your ass with just their fists isn't immediately a life threatening situation or grave bodily harm, especially if you have a way out (even in stand your ground states).

If they have a knife, bat, gun or other dangerous implement, you're always on safer ground but they have to then be approaching you/your family and/or very close. Standing 25' away with a bat or knife yelling at you isn't threatening. When you draw, also remember to bark out those commands, drop the weapon, back up, stop, stop, stop, etc. if for no other reason than for people to hear you yell them at the "attacker".

Lastly remember/practice what you need to say when you call 911. He was attacking my family/me, I thought he was going to kill me...(b/c that's what he said) even if you were the only one that "heard" it, he came at us, had a knife, etc., etc. Must be very clear that you felt your life was in danger, etc.


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Old 05-14-2013, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by RussH View Post
In your opinion Al, does someone threatening to beat you up but doesn't show a weapon grounds for you to feel your life is threatened? If I had someone say that to me I would draw down on them and shoot them for sure if they didn't back down.

Russ
"you won't get out of here alive" means that you will be dead. Not comatose; not on a ventilator. Dead. There is no in between.

Clear intent from the one doing the threatening. He intends that you not leave the scene alive; so unless you plan on committing suicide, or a meteor hits you while he's beating you; then he intends to do the killing.




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Old 05-14-2013, 07:52 PM
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To answer to question.... When I have no other option.
Race, sex, religion, size, numbers - whatever the issue, only when I have no other option.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:03 PM
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Unfortunately the question asked is very complex as is the laws that vary from State to State. In Florida, In my opinion, you would have to articulate MORE than just he threatened to kill me. There would need to be a sudden reaching as if going for a weapon and better yet a weapon seen. Your proximity to each other could matter etc. Also if your knocked to the ground, your at an immediate disadvantage and at RISK OF LOSING your weapon. I also think retreat is ALWAYS an option particularly if I am not cornered. When my family is with me I try to avoid trouble always.

You also need to have some tools other than just going to a gun. Does that mean you need to be Chuck Norris, NO (cause that would be impossible for anyone) but maybe some simple defensive tactic moves. ALWAYS USE VOICE COMMANDS.....if you see a weapon yell "gun" or "knife." Yell "get away" "Get on the Ground" "Stay Away" "Help or FIRE"

Bottom line, you have to be able to articulate why you used deadly force, not sure how many states it will be legal to shoot someone just because they threatened to kill you, I think you will need more than just that in most all states, but I could be wrong I AM NOT A LAWYER

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Old 05-14-2013, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Design59 View Post
A Superior Pilot is the pilot who uses his superior judgement to avoid putting himself in a situation which requires the use of his superior skills. - - - I think concealed carry is a lot the same way. The gun is the choice of last resort.

It's pretty stupid to knowingly put yourself in that position for no good reason.


It's pretty stupid to knowingly put yourself in that position for no good reason.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:08 PM
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The clear answer from a law enforcement standpoint is...there is no clear answer!....BUT its not really law enforcement that makes the ultimate decision...the state attorney/district attorney makes the final filing decisions, and if they can't, it goes to the grand jury...
Simply put...The law allows you to protect yourself, family, other persons...each situation is different...CAN you justify in a sworn statement with all the other physical, audio taped, video taped, and forensic evidence that your life or the lives of others are in danger...if so your justified....

BUT, be prepared to face the inquisition, and the possibility of others not seeing your point of view..... Then there is the civil side of things which really muddy the waters...damn attorneys
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:10 PM
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Read "In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection" by Mossad Ayoob. A very thoughtful, complete (but now a bit dated in stand-your-ground states) answer to OP's question that you're not going to get in a forum.

If a reasonable person in White E's shoes thought the aggressor intended to hurt him, and was capable and in position to do so, he could reasonbly fire. But he shouldn't have been there in the first place.

That said, years ago I got really low on gas at 3:00 am on elevated I-95 in the City of Brotherly Love, and had to descend the the surface and find fuel. Not a comfortable spot for a honkey & family, and we got some looks from some local "gents". Lucky for all, they saw the Florida tag, assumed correctly, and kept on going.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by round2it View Post
Russ, that why imo law obiding people lose or at best at a disadvantage from criminals at the onset. Criminals don't have the issue of "is this the right thing to do" or "what are the repercussions from my actions" mentality. They don't have morals and don't give a damn. Already they have the advantage in a bad situation. The white guy in the other thread had many strikes against him from the start. I've had similiar discussions with co-workers about this and we mostly all agree on this. It sucks.
You wrote exactly what I was thinking. A criminal will for sure shoot first and ask questions later (so to speak). A law abiding CCW person will think first which could cost them their life.

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Old 05-14-2013, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RussH View Post
You wrote exactly what I was thinking. A criminal will for sure shoot first and ask questions later (so to speak). A law abiding CCW person will think first which could cost them their life.

Russ
Russ,
You have to train, read, educate and constantly think about your question. I have found that reading articles like those written by Massod Ayoob is a very good start. Many times the good guys (police, armed citizen, etc.) are reacting to the bad guys actions, that is just how it is but you do have the element of the surprise, so use it when you can..
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by RussH View Post
You wrote exactly what I was thinking. A criminal will for sure shoot first and ask questions later (so to speak). A law abiding CCW person will think first which could cost them their life.

Russ
One should not carry any kind of weapon unless 100% PREPARED to use it.
"Prepared" also means prepared for the repercussions. If you hesitate because you are worried about civil results, you should not have been carrying in the first place.

I am reminded of the joke:

87 year old woman gets pulled over for speeding. Cop notices her CCW endorsement & asks, "Do you have a gun on you ma'am?"
"Yes," she says. "I have a 9mm on my side." Cop says, "OK, do you have any more weapons? She replies, "I have a .40 cal. in my glove box.
Cop says," Ummm, do you have any more weapons I need to know about? Lady says "Yes, I also have a .45 under my seat."
Cop says, shit ma'am, what are you afraid of?"

She says, "NOT A DAMN THING!"
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Snapper Head View Post
That's a clear threat to life.

In MS that guy is dead; and no one goes to jail.

Big Al

Originally Posted by Cracker View Post
Unfortunately the question asked is very complex as is the laws that vary from State to State.

Two ways to answer the question.

Legally it is different by state. Want to compare Vermont to Texas? Years ago (Texas) I was told if someone is breaking into your house and you shoot them, drag them into your house before calling the police. Not sure if that applies today but you have more leeway in TX (and MS).

Whatever the state, you have to live with your actions which is a far more complex issue. What does it take to justify killing someone? If your life is at risk and you have no other options then the answer appears to be clear. Does a verbal threat justify shooting? All depends on the circumstances.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:07 PM
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A few tidbits I have learned over the years

"Fear causes hesitation, Hesitation will get you killed"

A Marine drill instructor once told me. When you enter a room be prepared to kill everyone in the room. Look at everyone in the room and have a plan to get you and your guys out alive no matter the cost. Be prepared to pay the cost.

One of the rules of Zombieland....double tap


I could type on for days on this...
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:47 PM
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I have my concealed carry and the education I got totally discouraged pulling out your weapon for fear of YOU being arrested.

Your instructor was inept, then, I'm quite sure Ohio has laws which define when deadly force can be used, usually involves a fear of serious injury or death to self or others. The more clear-cut the threat, the easier to articulate fear ...
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