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How to get $5 gas in the middle of a shale oil/gas boom

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How to get $5 gas in the middle of a shale oil/gas boom

Old 05-14-2013, 10:05 AM
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Default How to get $5 gas in the middle of a shale oil/gas boom

Got to love politicians who's main decision making factor is the fact the the US political season starts in Iowa. Not only is ethanol corrosive to engines and fuel systems, it makes gas more expensive. It also drive up the price of beef, pork, chicken, bread, and cereal, but I guess none of those are important to anyone.



http://www.bloomberg.com/video/could...RPOcAnDaQ.html
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:38 AM
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Don't forget how artificially inflated energy costs
help destroy America's middle class
and our economy.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:11 AM
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In the mid 1970's, the pump price for regular gasoline was about $.50-.55 a gallon. The TAX on that gallon of fuel is now more than the pump price was then, & back then we had real gasoline without corn likker messing it up.
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Old 05-14-2013, 11:29 AM
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bu tthe treehuggers say it's better than nasty crude oil products that kill baby puppies and rape chickens, so it must be true.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:42 PM
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Not to deny the issues around ethanol but it is a small part of the reason that gas is as expensive as it is. First we have some limited refinery capacity and the process and cost of building new ones keeps the number small. With the development of the domestic fields and Canadian crude we have more oil then we can refine.

Second the US is net exporter of gasoline. The world wide demand for gasoline especially in the developing nations and Chine has driven the price of gas to where it is now. The oil companies keep the price high by controlling the supply side to maximize profits.

IIRC ethanol was developed to augment supply issue that now does not exist. It would be nice if they repealed that regulation. If so you would also the prices of many food items drop as the redirection of corn from the food chain to the gasoline supply has resulted in corn products becoming more expensive.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kyle1974 View Post
bu tthe treehuggers say it's better than nasty crude oil products that kill baby puppies and rape chickens, so it must be true.
Actually, the treehuggers don't like it either. This was written by The Environmental Working Group, An environmentalist organization.

You can thank the farmers and farm lobbyists for keeping ethanol in your gasoline. They love it.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:51 PM
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It is more complicated than you could possibly imagine. There are lots of farmers being paid to NOT grow anything. Other farmers are being given subsidies to grow corn. With all the corn available, there has to be something done with it. We can give some to China, but there is just too much, so it is turned into ethanol. Hence the regulations requiring ethanol in gas to use up all the ethanol produced.

It is another way of injecting money into the economy without being a bailout to companies or welfare.
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Old 05-14-2013, 02:26 PM
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To add to the issue, only corn qualifies for federal subsidies. Therefor, they don't use the far more efficient sugar producer, sugar cane. Brazil is a large producer of ethanol, all from cane.
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by txj33p View Post
Not to deny the issues around ethanol but it is a small part of the reason that gas is as expensive as it is. First we have some limited refinery capacity and the process and cost of building new ones keeps the number small. With the development of the domestic fields and Canadian crude we have more oil then we can refine.

Second the US is net exporter of gasoline. The world wide demand for gasoline especially in the developing nations and Chine has driven the price of gas to where it is now. The oil companies keep the price high by controlling the supply side to maximize profits.

IIRC ethanol was developed to augment supply issue that now does not exist. It would be nice if they repealed that regulation. If so you would also the prices of many food items drop as the redirection of corn from the food chain to the gasoline supply has resulted in corn products becoming more expensive.
I would have to disagree with you.

5+ years ago we had a lack of refining capacity and yes it is still virtually impossible to build a new refinery in the US. Existing refinery expansions and upgrades has largely eliminated the lack of refining capacity. If you look at refinery capacity utilization rates they used to run at above 90% for most of the 2000's and even close to 100% in the late 1990's but recent years the run rates are in the high 80% range. This means there is spare capacity since about 05% is considered full capacity given required maintenance stoppages.

Ethanol was not originally made to augment supply it was meant to make a cleaner burning fuel and has since replaced MTBE to reduce air pollution. Yes there is a huge amount of corn production that can be used for ethanol but there is a very valid argument that there is so much corn production because of ethanol subsidies and not the other way around. If the ethanol subsidies were not in place more acreage would be planted with soybeans, grains, and other crops. Farmers are not dumb and are doing exactly what they should, If they can make more on corn, grow corn, it's not their problem that the price of corn is fake due to government regulation.

The big problem I have with all the bs out of the ethanol lobby is the way they try to show the environmental impact of ethanol. They compare the impact of burning the fuel (sometimes the impact of refining and burning the fuel against the impact of extracting, transporting, refining, distributing, and burning oil products. In other words for ethanol they use the impact of using the fuel, for oil they use the impact of the entire production chain from ground to use. Corn does not magical appear at the refiner. There is environmental impact from planting, irrigation, farm equipment, fertilizer (especially runoff) harvesting, transportation, ect. All these impacts should be factored. When you do this you realize that corn ethanol is worse for the environment than oil. This is not all ethanol that is worse, but corn is. Ethanol made switchgrass or jatropha or sugar is much chaeper to make and environmentally friendly..... Just that those do not have the corn lobby.
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Old 05-16-2013, 08:54 AM
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The goverment is in control They limit us to the cars we are aloud to drive, In europe they have honda diesels that get close to 70 miles per gallon
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by ladyjane View Post
The goverment is in control They limit us to the cars we are aloud to drive, In europe they have honda diesels that get close to 70 miles per gallon
This is true. I had an '04 GTO before my current car. That car was a rebadged Holden Monaro and was also sold in Europe badged as a Vauxhaul. The car got better fuel economy while also getting better power both in Europe and in Australia. The only different was the tune which GM changed for the US because they did not want issues with the EPA.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:19 AM
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This argument, and all arguments about FF's in this country, is now moot. The U.S. is not a growth market for these fuels and hasn't been for quite a while. Energy producers have opened all the valves to unload as much of their previously untapped reserves in this country and put them on a fast boat to China. Those huge reserves we hold untapped since first drilled after WWII. Drilled and capped in the 50's, all across the midwest

Completely bypassing the American market.

There is no additional refining capabilities being sought for this country by Big Energy. The energy producers see the handwriting on the wall and will not spend the money because FF's are being phased out here.

Not for while of course, there is still a long migration to NG vehicles and fuel cell/ electric that has to happen first. The timetables are already worked out. Tesla is a huge hit and outselling Audi, Mercedes and BMW in their price segments. But its coming and they know it and are planning accordingly.

That's why they want that Keystone pipeline so badly. It will allow a pathway to get all that tar sand oil to overseas markets that are farther behind the curve than we are. Just won't be here, or for our benefit unless you work for the companies or hold the stock.

So you can discuss ethanol all you want. It's trivial and has no impact 5 years down the road. Other technologies will drive the industry that have no use for the stuff.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ladyjane View Post
The goverment is in control They limit us to the cars we are aloud to drive, In europe they have honda diesels that get close to 70 miles per gallon
Before you move remember the average price of 1.50 euros/liter x 1.29 dollars/euro x 3.8 liters/gallon = $7.35/gallon

It's cheaper on some of the Eastern European countries but not less than 1.30 Euros.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:22 PM
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The Gubmint wants to control every manner of our lives except the one thing that could make it better............. energy. I guess they learned their lesson from JFK.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by VTXrider View Post

Ethanol was not originally made to augment supply it was meant to make a cleaner burning fuel and has since replaced MTBE to reduce air pollution.
Additionally, MTBE was found to be leaching into groundwater supplies and caused some concern because it is not biodegradable.

The whole reason for "oxygenates" such as MTBE and ethanol to be used in gasoline is to increase the burn rate and burn the fuel more completely with the idea being that it eliminates pollution at the tail pipe.

A quick look at the national average price of E85 shows it to be around $3.12. Folks, that's 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.

The national average price for a gallon of regular is $3.77 a gallon. This is commonly an E10 formula with 90% being gasoline and "up to 10%" being ethanol as an oxygenate or octane booster.

Want to guess what you are getting when you buy 91 octane? I'll give you a hint - more ethanol than the 87 octane. Sometimes up to 50 cents more a gallon than 87 octane


So, Why do we pay MORE for a gallon of gas that has less ethanol by volume than a gallon of E85 which is almost all ethanol and very little gasoline?

This makes no sense at all. You're paying up to $1.15 more a gallon for fuel that has less ethanol. The only reason that 91 is more expensive than 87 is that it has a higher octane rating and that octane comes from ethanol...which was supposed to lower the price of gas.
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:09 PM
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Too bad the government won't let me buy the electric car I want.
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by aln View Post

Tesla is a huge hit and outselling Audi, Mercedes and BMW in their price segments.
Support? As far as I understand Tesla sold a total of 20,000 cars last year. I assume, but do not know, that Audi MB and BMW sold more than this at those price points.
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by VTXrider View Post
Support? As far as I understand Tesla sold a total of 20,000 cars last year. I assume, but do not know, that Audi MB and BMW sold more than this at those price points.
Sorry not clear enough. Tesla outsold each brand in its segment this year. They did not sell more than BMW, Mercedes and Audi combined.

Tesla Model S: 4,750
Audi A8: 1,462
BMW 7-Series: 2,338
Mercedes-Benz S Class: 3,077


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla...#ixzz2TUWntPf5
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Old 05-16-2013, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by LI Sound Grunt View Post
Before you move remember the average price of 1.50 euros/liter x 1.29 dollars/euro x 3.8 liters/gallon = $7.35/gallon

It's cheaper on some of the Eastern European countries but not less than 1.30 Euros.
She doesn't have that ability to( think)
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by aln View Post
Sorry not clear enough. Tesla outsold each brand in its segment this year. They did not sell more than BMW, Mercedes and Audi combined.

Tesla Model S: 4,750
Audi A8: 1,462
BMW 7-Series: 2,338
Mercedes-Benz S Class: 3,077


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/tesla...#ixzz2TUWntPf5
Ok, but I'm not even so sure that is the segment. I would think the competition is BMW 5 series, not sure for MB but price wise it is more in line with the E class, and Audi... not sure there.
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