Go Back  The Hull Truth - Boating and Fishing Forum > BOATING FORUMS > Dockside Chat
Reload this Page >

For members that are contractors or in the trades...

Notices

For members that are contractors or in the trades...

Old 07-22-2012, 05:28 AM
  #1  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,791
Default For members that are contractors or in the trades...

This is sort of tied in with my "level & plumb" window/door job thread... but I thought it warranted a new thread because it can apply to just about any job.

From reading that thread it appears that lots of folks here show up on a job and correct and wrongs right there on the spot.

On the window/door job in the aforementioned thread when something was done incorrectly (by the crew) I would text the contractor and let him know. Case in point, one window that was especially bad - out of plumb by about 1/2", in crooked, etc. It was Tapcon'ed (Masonry construction) and other than some masonry work and caulking, it was going to stay put (had I not said anything). This is the same for some other windows, granted more like 1/4" out of plumb (which is being addressed).

Anyway... as the job progresses there are more thing that I'm noticing that are going to be much harder (read: take more time) to correct if you wait until it's all done. (For example, wouldn't you want to know if a window was out of plumb BEFORE you caulk it in and do the stucco work, etc.????)

I texted the contractor to let him know, and he asked that I please let the crew finish and that he assured me that he WILL NOT leave ANY job until it is right. He's done work for other people I know, I've gone to their houses and he did great work - plumb, neat, etc. Same crew, same everything.

I politely texted him that he will not hear another peep from me until HE tells me the job is 100% done. All I ask for in return is to not get upset when we walk through and I point out a dozen things need to be corrected that would have taken a couple hour and now will take a day or two. I'm holding 50% of the balance of the work. It's for 20+ openings... so this is a good job.

I know it's a drag when a "Harry Homeowner" knows when something isn't right... but seeing how he (contractor) doesn't come around to check on his crew, what are the alternatives?

I actually have a REALLY good relationship with the contractor and sent him other business... but this is for my personal residence and I want it right. He knew exactly what to expect (that I'm a pain in the ass and that not too much is going to get past me -- and what does get past me won't get past the stringent S. Florida inspection process).

So... just let 'em keep working... I just hate that if they have to pull out windows after they've been put in, they always get a little buggered up.
OldPete is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 05:43 AM
  #2  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location:
Posts: 3,523
Default

I want to know ASAP so the fix is easy , I do most of my own work anyway ...

I'll ask homeowner when a couple of screws are in on an Item "That look good ?" before permanent attachment , they say OK I say sign here ...;-)
Tommysmicroskiff is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:00 AM
  #3  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,655
Default

Pete; the story you tell is so out-of-whack that I can't help but wonder what, "...the rest of the story", is.

Not saying that your version isn't accurate, but would like to have the contractor's version.

For a contractor to screw up (maybe) a big job for a client that's already sent him business and that knows other clients, that's bizarre.

For a businessman to potentially have to eat 50% of the job's bid cost is outrageous, because he'll have money coming out of his pocket just to cover expenses, much less O&P.

For an experienced builder to not want to know about and correct faults as they arise, and who asks his client to not talk anymore is really putting his head in the lion's mouth.

All I can come up with is that he's on top of things, he thinks you can't read a level, he considers you to be a chronic complainer with baseless charges, and he bid the job so high that that last 50% still gives him wiggle room and profit.

...but I can't put a spin on why he'd want the bad publicity.....

The bad part for you is having to sit tight, then having those guys (now with attitudes) back in your house to fix your punch list.

Is there a way to stop further New work until you've signed off on the windows?
bamaboy473 is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:16 AM
  #4  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,791
Default

LOL. 2 minutes after I posted the contracted texted me that he would rather NOT wait until the job is done to have things pointed out. He's going tomorrow to make sure things are up to snuff. LOL. I thought it was a good idea.

You know, as much as a self-proclaimed dickwad as I can be, why is it that *I* feel very bad when I point things out like this, when it's me spending what could be a new truck for my family on this job?

Am I an idiot or what?
OldPete is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:23 AM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sunny florida
Posts: 23,014
Default

There's more to this story than you give..mainly, is the install being done correctly? Is it structurally sound? Ironically, building codes do not address aesthetics or quality.
billinstuart is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:24 AM
  #6  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,791
Default

Thanks guys. I can assure you... he knows I can read a level, and he knows that I know what's "ok" and what's not ok. I'm willing to concede an 1/8" of inch as I understand that we're not building a $4M new construction house. Yes, if I was doing it - it would be perfect. But that's another story.

You are right -- there is more to this. Here's the "other part" one of the doors that was ordered was suppose to have obscured glass (white inner-layer) -- it came in with regular tinted glass. They said, no problem, we'll install this and have the glass panels switched out. (French doors (2) and 2 sidelights). I said, no problem, however, in my experience, when they start pulling apart doors they always look buggered up where they pull the aluminum out - not to mention seals, etc. He assured me it would be perfect. I will admit, that I hope that by making sure they know to do everything else right, they will make sure that this is done right too! (Especially since it's the front entry way!).

If for ANY reason you think I'm being a douche, TELL ME -- I know dam well I'm not super-easy to deal with, but I also think I can be flexible (as shown by above)...

So there you go.
OldPete is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:25 AM
  #7  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,791
Default

Originally Posted by billinstuart View Post
There's more to this story than you give..mainly, is the install being done correctly? Is it structurally sound? Ironically, building codes do not address aesthetics or quality.
What "more" do you think there is? This is a fully permitted job of hurricane doors and windows. All engineering is stamped, everyone is insured and licensed.

So what "more" is missing??????
OldPete is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:51 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,575
Default

Well he was warned because there's no punchout that going to put those windows back plumb until they're removed and then installed plumb and that's as simple as it gets.
Gator56 is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:56 AM
  #9  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Downeast, North Carolina
Posts: 6,131
Default

My first thought was, "where the hell is the contractor"?

Most of my jobs, I was on the site at least a few hours every day or the whole day. When I ran several jobs at once and had crews doing the actual work, I still stopped by each job site every day. Every remodel or retro fit job requires constant adjustments and decisions about things as they come up.

As far as window replacement is concerned, they have to be square and level to open and close properly. If the wall or the original widows were out of plumb, that should have been addressed when the job was bid. The contractor or salesman that measured the windows should have seen and checked for plumb. There's no excuse for not noticing. There's no "ooops". It's his job to check this stuff before the job starts and discuss it with the homeowner before taking the job.
davedowneast is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 07:13 AM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location:
Posts: 368
Default

I'd only add that windows aren't rocket science and unless the guys are new, they're probably doing it right. There are also allnsorts of great little tricks guys who do windows and doors for a living know when installing them. One thing to remember is that your opening may not be square or level, but the frame has to be shimmed to be both square and level. My guess is you've got a bunch of shims in there to make the opening ready. Once it is trimmed out, it'll look perfect and open and close perfect. That's my guess anyway. And if it's a reputable contractor, he gonna make it right because his name is on the work. I don't think you're being a dickwad at all. If it were my job id much rather stop by and work things out now rather than having a customer stew about it. Sounds like that's what he's doing so I wouldn't sweat it just yet.
WNY PAT is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 07:16 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sunny florida
Posts: 23,014
Default

Originally Posted by OldPete View Post
What "more" do you think there is? This is a fully permitted job of hurricane doors and windows. All engineering is stamped, everyone is insured and licensed.

So what "more" is missing??????
Just because it's permitted and inspected doesn't mean it's done correctly. Are the workers following the installation requirements to the letter? Bucks properly attached? Margin between buck and sash within specs? Correct plastic shims used? If the bucks are as far out as indicated, makes me question ALL aspects of the install.

Sidelights are tempered. don't accept an untempered piece of glass. Many companies like PGT have repair crews who will do a proper repair or glazing replacement.

Window and door replacement has become a PITA in Florida.
billinstuart is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 07:58 AM
  #12  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
240 LTS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 20,698
Default

One of the most frustrating things to deal with on my projects, is what you described in your OP. I call it "Compounding the problem".

The subs or tradesman that follow the previous one that made the mistake, (or knew it was wrong therefore it wasn't a "mistake") say something like, "I'm just the caulker or stucco guy or painter...I didn't install the window! It's not my job to check their work! It should have been correct(ed) before I got here!

Yes on small jobs the same people will do multiple steps in the process and "Compound their own problems" but on bigger jobs it will be totally unrelated subcontractors.
If they see the issue and care enough they may speak up and tell me the trade before him screwed something up therefore if they do their part it will only make harder and take longer to fix later as you mentioned.

We deal with this every day. I let them know in a nice way I am not trying to point the finger at anyone, we all make mistakes.
Just that this has to be corrected before the next step is taken.

One thing I can't get is more time. The project HAS TO BE complete by a certain date and meet the owners satisfaction.

Moral of the story, speak up as you see the issue(s) in a nice way.
Some will be receptive and some will take high offense to even thinking of checking their work.




.
240 LTS is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:04 AM
  #13  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Hammond, LA
Posts: 17,418
Default

take a loss to keep a customer
its a nobrainer if you want to stay in business
i treat my repeat customers like the golden goose
cgrand is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:05 AM
  #14  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: MA and ME
Posts: 16,795
Default

Waiting for the job to be finished is just dumb on the contractors part. Hard to make money when you do a job twice unless your T&M and in that case I'm only paying you once to do it right.
Mist-Rest is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:11 AM
  #15  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 2,447
Default

Wife and I remodeled 4400 sq. feet recently. Had a contractor. He had the framing crew. We hired out everything else. All my guys except the finish carpenters. Oh, and I didn't hire a painter. I decided to do it myself to save the 28,000. Well the finishing crew gets around to hanging crown and baseboards and the gaps in the corners are astronomical. Contractor wasn't around. I tell em to take it down and start over, they tell me that the painter will take care of it all. Little did they know I was the painter. The contractor had to replace 1800 board feet of 7" crown to fix their fuck up. He wasn't too happy. But he fixed it. And I've given his number to at least ten people so far.
CLang is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:13 AM
  #16  
Senior MemberCaptains Club Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 15,655
Default

Originally Posted by OldPete View Post

If for ANY reason you think I'm being a douche, TELL ME --
.

In a word, NO. You are being what we call an informed consumer. Good on ya.
bamaboy473 is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 09:23 AM
  #17  
Senior MemberCaptains Club MemberPLEDGER
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,266
Default

OLDPETE

I feel your Pain, Building as we Speak New construction, YOUR HOUSE ,YOUR MONEY
YOUR piece of Mind. I drove up at the house one day to find french door opening off center by 5 feet !!! I told them to move it as THE PLAN showed.

Right is Right

What brand windows and doors You go with ?

Coconut
Coconut Sunrise is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 11:27 AM
  #18  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,791
Default

Wow! Thanks for all the replies! I thought for sure I'd get a few, "You're being typical Old Pete - pain in the ass" replies. LOL. The contractor spoke with his crew and as he put it, in a text he sent them and cc'd me:

"...If we finish like this and the windows are off he is gonna make me take them out. If they are off then we need to fix them. He put a level on the ones we did for his father in law and they were perfect according to him. That is how anal he is. So let's avoid having to re-do any before (other work, stucco, etc.) He is going to be up our asses the whole way through..."

See... that is why I'm a sucker, because I don't want to bust anyone's balls. We all work hard, this is a lot of money to me (almost $20k) -- I just want it done right. Simple as that. Why wouldn't you just tell the crew, "look, this guy is a pain in the ass, so make sure it's all the way it should be" -- instead of waiting and seeing if I'm smart enough to catch it, which only pisses me off. At least we're past that point. LOL. Everyone, judging by the text, now should be at their best.
OldPete is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 11:34 AM
  #19  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,791
Default

Originally Posted by Coconut Sunrise View Post
OLDPETE

I feel your Pain, Building as we Speak New construction, YOUR HOUSE ,YOUR MONEY
YOUR piece of Mind. I drove up at the house one day to find french door opening off center by 5 feet !!! I told them to move it as THE PLAN showed.

Right is Right

What brand windows and doors You go with ?

Coconut
I went with ES. So far the verdict is that I *REALLY* love their horizontal roller windows, their single hung, and their french doors and sidelights. I also have 2 triple panel (XXX) sliding glass doors... I didn't get the "heavy duty" ones... and I think I should have. I'm "ok" with the quality of the sliding glass doors, but they're nothing to write home about. I would give the other products a 9 out of 10 and the sliders a 7 out of 10 -- mind you, they've only been in the house for 2 days. LOL. So I don't know longevity or anything like that. I can tell you that my father in law has EuroTech French Doors and I would give those a 10 out of 10... at probably 3 times the price. Make of that what you will.

I may grow to like the sliding glass doors. I'm use to the high-end Andersen sliders - big, heavy and feel "right".

Hope that helps. What are you using?
OldPete is offline  
Old 07-22-2012, 11:36 AM
  #20  
Admirals Club Admiral's Club Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 16,791
Default

Originally Posted by billinstuart View Post
Just because it's permitted and inspected doesn't mean it's done correctly. Are the workers following the installation requirements to the letter? Bucks properly attached? Margin between buck and sash within specs? Correct plastic shims used? If the bucks are as far out as indicated, makes me question ALL aspects of the install.

Sidelights are tempered. don't accept an untempered piece of glass. Many companies like PGT have repair crews who will do a proper repair or glazing replacement.

Window and door replacement has become a PITA in Florida.
Can you explain that? Are you saying that when they do the side lights they try to "sneak in" using plate glass? How does that work with hurricane glass... especially with the white inner-layer type I'm getting (frosted look / privacy)?

Thanks
Pete
OldPete is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread