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Shotgun for home defense?

Old 02-16-2010, 08:13 AM
  #81  
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Hey while we have the experts here - I have a New England Firearms "Partner" H&R 18 " 12 Guage. and all this talk of ejecting mechanisms - does anyone know anyhting about this gun. Have fired very few rounds just to test fire and it seemed fine to me - is there any history on this?
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:31 AM
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I had an H&R in 12 and 20 Gauge in the single shot "Pardner". (Single shot is all Grandaddy would let us have till we "qualified") Shot tons of rounds through both with no issues. I would assume you are talking about the "Pardner" pump action. I have not heard anything negative about them.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by doughnut View Post
I just want to throw some logic into this. What does this have to do with me? With how I act or how I handle a firearm? HINT: NOTHING Why dont you post all the sad stories of families wrecked by booze? SHould that indicate you shouldnt have a glass of Chianti at Olive Garden?
quote=doughnut;2789190]I just want to throw some logic into this. What does this have to do with me? With how I act or how I handle a firearm? HINT: NOTHING Why dont you post all the sad stories of families wrecked by booze? SHould that indicate you shouldnt have a glass of Chianti at Olive Garden?[/quote]

I guess logic is one of those" in the eye of the beholder" .

I am in no way questioning Crackers or any other LIO ability to perform their job and use of propper judgemnt in the coarse of the daily duties. I believe in them and trust them. I also know they are human and are capible of making decisons commonly made by everyday people not connected with any law inforcement agency.


However,

Cracker jumped to a conclusion that a quick google search of home invasion would be a good sourse to support his pro shot gun beliefs. The very first story IMO is what should be used against home protection with a firearm.

Logic would say, the average persons reactions and quick conclusion and leathel desicion making isn't as good as Crackers. If cracker can jump to a quick wrongfull conclusion being a cop, the average person can jump to the wrong conclusion. After all Cracker is a highly trained person.



This story hopelly does not ,never will or any similar storyhave a effect on any of us.

But, I find it odd that some of us can't relate to this story and others like it as being tyipical and normal.

Are you saying you can't imagine someone being drucnk and depressed over their fathers recent death?

Are you saying you can't imagine someone being drunk out of their mind after drinking with their buddy all day.

Are you saying you can't imagine a drunk yelling

are you saying a drunk who is supposed to be going over to his old buddies house may be confused whoes yard he might be in if he has never been to his buddies house but his buddy dropped him off out front.

Are you saying , the people involved with this story didn't seem to be normal average people

If so. If it can happen to normal average people on a daily basis, are you saying you concider yourself far superior than the normal average person?

I am saying if it can happen to average normal people all over on a daily basis it can continue to happen,

Oh yea.. and it can't happen to me......
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:42 AM
  #84  
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Please dont dodge the question by asking questions, try answering the question, then posing another question for me to answer.

"I guess logic is one of those" in the eye of the beholder"

Show my lack of logic. Demonstrate that I am illogical. Dont pose dramatic questions looking for emotionally evocative answers.

Answer my initial question, what does one have to do with the other. What do the actions of one have to do with me? How can you "punish" me for what MIGHT occur, or worse, for what others have done?

It is quite simple in the end really isnt it? If YOU do not want a gun in your house, that is your choice, right? For what ever reasons you deem fit. SO, if I CHOOSE to have a gun in my house, that is MY choice, right? Now heres the very very simple part. Those two choices (yours and mine) have NOTHING to do with what somebody else is going to do, or the decision that they will make concerning the same choice.

The dramas of the "yeah buts!" and the "what ifs?" have no place in a logical discussion.

If you look at the number of firearms in the hands of citizens in the country compared to the amount of non-criminal gun violence, you will see your argument is certainly debatable.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:58 AM
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boatmanalso, you're obviously in the minority here. When you were almost accidentally shot, why was the gun loaded in the first place?
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by doughnut View Post
I had an H&R in 12 and 20 Gauge in the single shot "Pardner". (Single shot is all Grandaddy would let us have till we "qualified") Shot tons of rounds through both with no issues. I would assume you are talking about the "Pardner" pump action. I have not heard anything negative about them.
Yes, its the pardner pump. Thanks for answering - good to hear.....its my bedroom gun....

Thanks
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:08 AM
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"Show my lack of logic"

your lack of logic is, these accidental shooting are normal and average people. You can't seem to think normal and average people can't continue to have accidental incidents.

"What do the actions of one have to do with me"

If you are a normal or average person living in the USA or like all the other normal and average people who have been effected by accidental shooting, the logic would be : there is a chance it could happen to me or someone I know. Whether it be the exicuting or recieving end. The exception would be you and everyone in your area are well above normal and average people.

"Now heres the very very simple part. Those two choices (yours and mine) have NOTHING to do with what somebody else is going to do,"

Well it does in my opinion. I don't think accidental shooting are favorable to a good reason for owning guns,

"The dramas of the "yeah buts!" and the "what ifs?" have no place in a logical discussion."

They do if they are real life occurances happening on a daily basis as a simple google seach provide. Even Crackers seach provide a more realistic result for a anti gun concideration. Again I'm not anti gun . I'm anti gun inthe hands og the wrong people. I stand behind pro gun,

"If you look at the number of firearms in the hands of citizens in the country compared to the amount of non-criminal gun violence, you will see your argument is certainly debatable."

I guess I am only using mu own personal knowledghe and experience.

EVERYONE I KNOW who owns a gun has had or knows of someone who has had Accidental discharge of a firearm. or at least claim it was accidental.
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by boatmanalso View Post
"Show my lack of logic"

your lack of logic is, these accidental shooting are normal and average people. You can't seem to think normal and average people can't continue to have accidental incidents.

"What do the actions of one have to do with me"

If you are a normal or average person living in the USA or like all the other normal and average people who have been effected by accidental shooting, the logic would be : there is a chance it could happen to me or someone I know. Whether it be the exicuting or recieving end. The exception would be you and everyone in your area are well above normal and average people.

"Now heres the very very simple part. Those two choices (yours and mine) have NOTHING to do with what somebody else is going to do,"

Well it does in my opinion. I don't think accidental shooting are favorable to a good reason for owning guns,

"The dramas of the "yeah buts!" and the "what ifs?" have no place in a logical discussion."

They do if they are real life occurances happening on a daily basis as a simple google seach provide. Even Crackers seach provide a more realistic result for a anti gun concideration. Again I'm not anti gun . I'm anti gun inthe hands og the wrong people. I stand behind pro gun,

"If you look at the number of firearms in the hands of citizens in the country compared to the amount of non-criminal gun violence, you will see your argument is certainly debatable."

I guess I am only using mu own personal knowledghe and experience.

EVERYONE I KNOW who owns a gun has had or knows of someone who has had Accidental discharge of a firearm. or at least claim it was accidental.

you are doing it again. I did not take or state, a position on the rationality of the people you mention. I am speaking specifically about you and me. Where do I say that I think or believe that folks wont have accidents, or the flu, for that matter? Your argumernt is based on words I did not say (type).

"I don't think accidental shooting are favorable to a good reason for owning guns," this is non-sequitur. Unrelated. You are inferring that a fact is that you must have "reason" to have a gun.

"Again I'm not anti gun " really? you are only anti-gun for those who might do bad things with guns? Well, we already have laws for that.

"I guess I am only using mu own personal knowledghe and experience." no, you are not, however, if you have had a personal tragedy involving firearms, that is a terrible thing, but the math still stands. The fact is, compared to how many guns there are, not many are used in "mistaken" shootings.


"EVERYONE I KNOW who owns a gun has had or knows of someone who has had Accidental discharge of a firearm. or at least claim it was accidental" I have never had an AD, but I have witnessed them. My Father had an AD, but yet, he has never appeared on someones lawn, drunk, with a gun. His AD resulted in no harm becasue of his gun handling habits. You are making a dis-jointed argument,

You cannot present information or evidence here that is compelling enough to even address my initial question, much less, go on these tangents. You can not argue based on what you surmise I have the capacity to think or do. By doing so, you place yourself in the enviable (if false) position of being the only "reasonable" participant in the argument. This tactic while common and inviting, is based on a false premise, and as such, any findings form it are likewise false.
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Mako 234 View Post
boatmanalso, you're obviously in the minority here. When you were almost accidentally shot, why was the gun loaded in the first place?
I'm not sure what gun safty has to do with having a monority opinion is ,I am awaree that shit happens. I can't believe that is a minority opinion????

I was 5. I don't know why the gun was loaded. My friend was 6 so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't remember either.

I'm not sure how well a 5 year old can be trained in gun saftey. At that age, learning is a trial and error thing. I don't remeber it being disturbing... I'm pretty sure any tragic event would be felt by someone older. Like... what do you think this guywill feel like for the rest of his life.

I'll bet he wished he never knew what a gun was. Just happened the other day.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...ng-of-son.html
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:45 AM
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OK since you insist on me explaining every little detail to your remark post after post . Lets get this back to simple again. How about if you answer just something.

"you are doing it again. I did not take or state, a position on the rationality of the people you mention"

How about you state your position on how acceptable ,what seems to be normal and average people accidentaly shooting a firearm which may or may not have had serious results to people who are only doing something normal and typical.
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Bruce W View Post
Well, I've narrowed down my choices - both are Remington "870" Express "Compact" models (pumps).

I will NOT use the gun for hunting or skeet - ONLY in a home defense mode.

I'm looking at 20ga., as it should do the job with the proper loads. "Kick" is also a factor in the intended use - don't want to be concerned with it when needed.

Questions:

1. Having a little shorter arms than some folks, I like the "feel" of the "Jr./Youth" model, as it has a little bit shorter stock, but an 18-3/4" barrel (37-1/4" overall length) vs. 21" barrel (40-1/2" overall length) on the other "Compact" models. The "length of pull" on the "Jr./Youth" is 12" vs. 13" on the others, BUT the gun comes with a "length of pull" KIT that can be used to add up to 1" LOP using 2 - 1/4" LOP spacers, and/or 1 - 1/2" LOP spacer, and the appropriate screws. Sound reasonable?

2. Is the 18-3/4" barrel "long" eNOUGH for the intended use?

3. Is 20ga. eNOUGH?

4. Gun also comes with "Super Cell" recoil pad, and, I think, a Rem choke?

5. Gun is "full" choke (Jr./Youth model) - other "Compacts" are "modified" choke.

6. Any "advantage" to a "ribbed" barrel vs. non-ribbed?

Is this a good choice, IYO? About $277 at Wal-Mart (if "apples-to-apples"?), $309 @ Bass Pro and local gun shop.

Thanks for your comments!

Here's a pic of the 18-3/4" barrel model and the 21" model ("ribbed").



Regards,
If kick is a concern get the 20ga. You need to get out and shoot the gun to familiarize yourself with it. Operation of the safety, how to unchamber a round etc. If the gun is uncomfortable to shoot you're not going to shoot it enough to get good with it.
1. get the shorter stock. for home defense you'll want to shoulder it as smooth as you can without the butt hanging up on your clothes.
2. 18.5" is perfect.
3. yes. at the range you will be at for home protection to shot wont spread no matter what choke you have which means you have to aim it to hit something. its almost like a slug at 15'. Thats why you need to practice.
4. ok
5. don't matter
6. in hunting situations the rib guides your eye down the barrel to the bead and in competition it dissapates the heat waves. for you're application it doesn't matter what you get.
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Old 02-16-2010, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by boatmanalso View Post
OK since you insist on me explaining every little detail to your remark post after post . Lets get this back to simple again. How about if you answer just something.

"you are doing it again. I did not take or state, a position on the rationality of the people you mention"

How about you state your position on how acceptable ,what seems to be normal and average people accidentaly shooting a firearm which may or may not have had serious results to people who are only doing something normal and typical.

As I said, you cannot answer one question. You are (yet again) answering a question with a question. Yet, you seem indignant that I have not anwered your question. Does this make sense to you? Can you not see how illogical your argument is by virtue of you being unable to answer ONE question directly? I am not trying to be difficult, I am trying to see your side of it. You trying to belittle my post(s) "OK since you insist on me explaining every little detail to your remark post after post " still doesnt support your position. I challenge you to answer my INITIAL question with no mis-direction. Then I would be happy to answer a question from you. Dont you agree that is how it should work?
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:21 AM
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"As I said, you cannot answer one question"
I answered alot of your questions . Which was the "one" I didn't answer that you wanted me to answer? or are you going to call that a question again ?

I only asked once for you to answer a question and you haven't answered anything.. lol sounds like you can't...
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:35 AM
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As best as I can tell there are about 80,000,000 people in America that own a gun. I would be willing to assume better than half of these people own more than 1 gun. There have been fewer than 700 accidental deaths or injuries by gun every year since 1999 and the number has decreased every year. There are around 30,000 murders by gun every year. Our country's current population is a little over 300,000,000. Accidental shootings or discharges by this math are not common and the average person is not likely to experience one.
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Old 02-16-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Blythe1022 View Post
As best as I can tell there are about 80,000,000 people in America that own a gun. I would be willing to assume better than half of these people own more than 1 gun. There have been fewer than 700 accidental deaths or injuries by gun every year since 1999 and the number has decreased every year. There are around 30,000 murders by gun every year. Our country's current population is a little over 300,000,000. Accidental shootings or discharges by this math are not common and the average person is not likely to experience one.
Im sure that information doesn't make the victoms and their family and friends feel any better. And there doesn;t seem to be a shortage of victoms yet. The only thing that there seems to be a shortage of is logical support justifing accidental shootings . Even Cracker and donut seem to be doing a better job supporting my position than whatever they are attempting to do???
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:06 AM
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I am sure the fewer than 700 people each year do not feel any better do to the fact that they are dead and their loved ones are probably very upset. If one person has more than 80,000,000 of anything and person 2 has less than 700, I would consider person 2 to have a significant shortage. The words logical justification and accident rarely can make sense when used in the same sentence.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Blythe1022 View Post
I am sure the fewer than 700 people each year do not feel any better do to the fact that they are dead and their loved ones are probably very upset. If one person has more than 80,000,000 of anything and person 2 has less than 700, I would consider person 2 to have a significant shortage. The words logical justification and accident rarely can make sense when used in the same sentence.
Since we are talking about home invasion and a shotgun being a practical defence against it. The rational provided by crackers google search ( which included false claims of intruders) should be the compared ratio against accidental shootings . That ratio as provided was a dozen a year opposed to 700 as some of you claim. I didn't count google but there is a ton of reported accidental shootings. The comparison to guns to accidental shootings would be misleading since I'm sure someone with 25 guns couldn't accidently shoot all 25 guns accidently and hit someone. Even Donut is supporting my position.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by boatmanalso View Post
I'm not sure what gun safty has to do with having a monority opinion is ,I am awaree that shit happens. I can't believe that is a minority opinion????

I was 5. I don't know why the gun was loaded. My friend was 6 so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't remember either.

I'm not sure how well a 5 year old can be trained in gun saftey. At that age, learning is a trial and error thing. I don't remeber it being disturbing... I'm pretty sure any tragic event would be felt by someone older. Like... what do you think this guywill feel like for the rest of his life.

I'll bet he wished he never knew what a gun was. Just happened the other day.

http://www.chicagobreakingnews.com/2...ng-of-son.html
Any kid can be trained in gun safety. I got my first .22 when I was 6. I was always taught to respect guns even before I had my first. Growing up there were about 70 guns in the house. About 60 of them were unlocked. I'm 26 now and my dad still calls me sometimes b/c he forgot the combination to his own gun safe.

I didn't mean gun safety you're in the minority, I meant your anti-gun blabbering that no one else agrees with. Take that crap somewhere else. The guy asked for opinions on a specific shotgun for home defense and all you brought up were accidental shootings that have happened around the country.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boatmanalso
Appenantly Jones was depressed about his dads recent death and he was a freind of a local resident who he had been with just moments before.


"
Jones' sister, Margaret Jones, said he had been depressed and was drinking because Friday was their late father's birthday.
Jones was in a vehicle with a friend, Joe Harper, but when Jones became violent, the friend dropped him off near the Hoover home, the news release said.
Harper lived in the area, and Margaret Jones said she believes her brother thought he was at Harper's house when he was banging on the Hoovers' door."

Not sure if that is really a great reason to blow someone away.


I just want to throw some logic into this. What does this have to do with me? (anybody other than the partys involved) With how I act or how I handle a firearm? HINT: NOTHING Why dont you post all the sad stories of families wrecked by booze? SHould that indicate you shouldnt have a glass of Chianti at Olive Garden?

there ya go, it was a page back, so probably hard to find. The first question is the one that would be nice to have an answer from you on.


So go ahead, answer.


You dont know what I support or dont support in that I have not taken a position on this argument. I will give you a hint at what I think. I think your position is somewhere around anti-gun, and the way you support that is through your "evidence" so, If you answer my question above, that will help determine where you are actually coming from.
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Old 02-16-2010, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by boatmanalso View Post
Since we are talking about home invasion and a shotgun being a practical defence against it. The rational provided by crackers google search ( which included false claims of intruders) should be the compared ratio against accidental shootings . That ratio as provided was a dozen a year opposed to 700 as some of you claim. I didn't count google but there is a ton of reported accidental shootings. The comparison to guns to accidental shootings would be misleading since I'm sure someone with 25 guns couldn't accidently shoot all 25 guns accidently and hit someone. Even Donut is supporting my position.
If we look at the numbers differently, not guns to accidental shootings, I think you are ingnorring good information. None the less, if you agree that there are around 30,000 gun related deaths a year in this country total and of those you except 700 as your "ton" of Accidentals let do that math. 700/30,000=.023 That means that 2.3% of all gun related deaths each year are accidental shootings. The rest are murder, suiside, self defense or LEO related.
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