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When does a pilot make the call to abort the landing

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When does a pilot make the call to abort the landing

Old 01-25-2010, 07:28 AM
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Default When does a pilot make the call to abort the landing

We are having very high winds here. From my desk I can watch the glide path for runway 17 at Philadelphia International. The planes are bouncing around everywhere. Over the last 90 minutes we watched 7 aborted landings. Both large and small jets. When does the pilot make the call?

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...40298&t=h&z=15
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by FASTFJR View Post
We are having very high winds here. From my desk I can watch the glide path for runway 17 at Philadelphia International. The planes are bouncing around everywhere. Over the last 90 minutes we watched 7 aborted landings. Both large and small jets. When does the pilot make the call?

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...40298&t=h&z=15
Flying back from the Abacos once and coming in to land at FLL we had a stiff crosswind, and the pilot was crabbing towards the runway. I was in the co-pilot seat. Then a loud alarm went off in the cockpit and he spoke into the headset microphone - "no, no, I am going to continue." Then just before hitting the runway he straightened.
So I suspect that the larger panes have even more sophisticated systems and can tell a pilot when he is off-line, has wind-shear ahead, or if he is going to have other issues.

Last edited by Menzies; 01-25-2010 at 10:06 AM.
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Old 01-25-2010, 08:05 AM
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Thanks

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Old 01-25-2010, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by FASTFJR View Post
We are having very high winds here. From my desk I can watch the glide path for runway 17 at Philadelphia International. The planes are bouncing around everywhere. Over the last 90 minutes we watched 7 aborted landings. Both large and small jets. When does the pilot make the call?

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...40298&t=h&z=15
In a nut shell: at any time. There were gust to 45 out of the south reported last hour, and reduced visibly at 2miles.. On 17, the published length is 6498'. ILS useable is 5070'. You have to assume the runway is wet as well....

Most carriers prohibit landings when a "windshear alert" is reported as well.

Not a good day at PHL....
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Old 01-25-2010, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Classic25 View Post
ILS useable is 5070'. You have to assume the runway is wet as well....

..

I would NOT want to know that if I am in row 27
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Old 01-25-2010, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Menzies View Post
Flying back from the Abacos once and coming in to land at FLL we had a stiff crosswind, and the pilot was crabbing towards the runway. I was in the co-pilot seat. Then a loud alarm went off in the cockpit and he spoke into the headset microphone - "no, no, I am going to continue." Then just before hitting the runway he straightened.
So I suspect that the larger panes have even more sophisticated systems and can tell a pilot when he is off-line, has wind-shear ahead, or if he is going to have other issues.
There is no alarm for crosswinds, may have been an autopilot disconnect or gear warning. The aircraft is flown down the extended runway centerline in a crab; that is the nose is angled into the wind so the track maintains the centerline. Near touchdown, the aircraft is transitioned to a slip. The nose is brought back to the centerline using the rudder, while opposite aileron is applied to bank the wings into the wind. Done properly, the upwind main gear will touch first, followed by the downwind gear as the airplane slows. The nose gear settle onto the centerline.

All aircraft have a maximum demonstrated crosswind component, and large airliners have more rigorous requirements because if exceeded it is possible to drag the upwind wingtip in a slip or blow tires when the airplanes swerves to straighten itself if landed still in a slip.
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Old 01-25-2010, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by itwonder View Post
There is no alarm for crosswinds, may have been an autopilot disconnect or gear warning. The aircraft is flown down the extended runway centerline in a crab; that is the nose is angled into the wind so the track maintains the centerline. Near touchdown, the aircraft is transitioned to a slip. The nose is brought back to the centerline using the rudder, while opposite aileron is applied to bank the wings into the wind. Done properly, the upwind main gear will touch first, followed by the downwind gear as the airplane slows. The nose gear settle onto the centerline.

All aircraft have a maximum demonstrated crosswind component, and large airliners have more rigorous requirements because if exceeded it is possible to drag the upwind wingtip in a slip or blow tires when the airplanes swerves to straighten itself if landed still in a slip.
Actually I wasn't convinced that it wasn't the stall alarm!
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Old 01-25-2010, 03:47 PM
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Menz, it could very well been the stall horn, it goes off in tough cross winds.
It is totally up to the pilot as to the go round decision.
Basically, if the aircraft is either off center line too far to safely get back over or it is determined that there is not enough runway remaining, the fires are lit and a go-round is initiated.

If the x-winds are too tough and a shorter runway facing more into the wind is available, that option may be exercised. Landing is a function of air speed, not ground speed. If you have a 30 kt wind in your face, it slows your track across the ground by 30 kts. You can land a loaded 757 on a 5000' runway and have room left over. Seen it done plenty of times at Reagan National in DC.

Low level turbulence is FUN!!!!
A nice test of a pilots skills!
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Old 01-26-2010, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by FASTFJR View Post
We are having very high winds here. From my desk I can watch the glide path for runway 17 at Philadelphia International. The planes are bouncing around everywhere. Over the last 90 minutes we watched 7 aborted landings. Both large and small jets. When does the pilot make the call?

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=3...40298&t=h&z=15

17 operations at PHL, single runway ops, don't clear well for the folks behind you. Plus extra caution for pilots/ATC in this situation make for more missed. Wind down the runway is your friend. 29 knot direct X-wind component on thier wide runway is the limit for the largest operator at PHL. Then there is the Airbus fly-by-wire crosswind challenge.
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Old 01-26-2010, 08:52 AM
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The short answer is that you abort and go around any time you don't feel safe. If you're at a controlled airport (one with a tower) you may piss of the ATC's if you do it a bunch of times, but better that than make the firefighters have to meet you on the runway.
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Old 01-26-2010, 09:29 AM
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Any time before the crash!
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Old 01-26-2010, 09:43 AM
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Commercial pilots have to make the call before a certain height. ( minimums)
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Old 01-26-2010, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Cmann View Post
Commercial pilots have to make the call before a certain height. ( minimums)
Minimums are when flying in IMC (in the clouds). If they are VMC, (visual approach) then there are no minimums.

FWIW, there are maximum x-wind components associated with each type of aircraft. A superior pilot will make the call to go around before he has to utilize his superior skill.

Wind shear alerts can certainly be a contributing factor to the decision process. Our operations manual also dictates that a flight that has a new first officer (co-pilot) on board must limit x-wind components to less than 15 knots regardless of the aircraft capability.
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by k9medic View Post
Minimums are when flying in IMC (in the clouds). If they are VMC, (visual approach) then there are no minimums.

FWIW, there are maximum x-wind components associated with each type of aircraft. A superior pilot will make the call to go around before he has to utilize his superior skill.

Wind shear alerts can certainly be a contributing factor to the decision process. Our operations manual also dictates that a flight that has a new first officer (co-pilot) on board must limit x-wind components to less than 15 knots regardless of the aircraft capability.
So, at 100'msl a commercial pilot can force a go around? Wouldn't think he/she will get the bird back in the air?? So, I would think there has to be a limit to the move...no? ( And I am familiar w/ ILS approaches and minimums)
I've heard that there is a go-around lever on Airbus jets. What's the minimum that it can be used?
Just curious....
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:27 PM
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Go-arounds can be done at any time. Under certain circumstances both visually or a CATIIIC which would be a full "auto land" the aircraft can actually touch down before you go around. Sure, its extremely rare but does, and can happen. Float too far down the runway, vehicle or aircraft, entering the runway.. Doesn't matter what altitude you're at, you're going around.

No go around levers, just "TOGA" buttons which is an acronym for Take Off Go Around. They're buttons right where your thumb would be on the thrust levers. Pushing one or both commands "go around" power if you're in the landing mode, pitches the flight directors to a specific nose up attitude and if the autopilot is engaged, rotates the nose up and starts a climb out.
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:36 PM
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Cmann,

Depending on the approach category that is being used (cat 1, cat II, etc...), some aircraft will have the main wheels hit the runway during a go around. Some things that are also considered are the ALD or available landing distance, which is very important for land and hold short ops.

I use the runway's VDP or visual descent point as my indicator regardless of the weather conditions.

I'm not sure about Airbus products, but the there is a certain amount of lag time for the turbines to spool up for a go around on any turbine aircraft. I just looked up the info on the airbus. There is some good info to be found here http://www.airbus.com/store/mm_repos...LAND-SEQ09.pdf

Making the call at 100' agl (not MSL) is really not an issue, but most pilots preplan and brief for the go around.
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Classic25 View Post
Go-arounds can be done at any time. Under certain circumstances both visually or a CATIIIC which would be a full "auto land" the aircraft can actually touch down before you go around. Sure, its extremely rare but does, and can happen. Float too far down the runway, vehicle or aircraft, entering the runway.. Doesn't matter what altitude you're at, you're going around.

No go around levers, just "TOGA" buttons which is an acronym for Take Off Go Around. They're buttons right where your thumb would be on the thrust levers. Pushing one or both commands "go around" power if you're in the landing mode, pitches the flight directors to a specific nose up attitude and if the autopilot is engaged, rotates the nose up and starts a climb out.
Will the TOGA button retract flaps as per missed requirements?
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:43 PM
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No, just puts the aircraft in go around mode, in the case of a go around.. Its a get the hell outta dodge (almost) max performance climb out going straight ahead, until another roll or pitch mode is engaged. Flaps and gear are always manually done on go arounds.
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Classic25 View Post
No, just puts the aircraft in go around mode, in the case of a go around.. Its a get the hell outta dodge (almost) max performance climb out going straight ahead, until another roll or pitch mode is engaged. Flaps and gear are always manually done on go arounds.

So the TOGA can't be programmed to the FD for the appropriate M.A.?

Basically its giving you a hand so you can gather all other info input??
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:47 PM
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Interesting stuff Classic.

I primarily fly a twin engine helicopter, which we fly single pilot IFR. We have a go around button as well, which brings up the command bars on the flight director and shows an indicator that we match with the power. Climb out is at 70 kts. at 750 fpm.

The autopilot will take us down to 50' and level us out on the radar altimeter on an ILS approach. It will also fly you into the trees at the end of the runway of the G/A button is not pressed.
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