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Minister shot and killed by undercover LEO's

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Minister shot and killed by undercover LEO's

Old 09-04-2009, 04:58 AM
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Default Minister shot and killed by undercover LEO's

This story is in our local news

http://www.independentmail.com/news/...ation-man-str/

Not sure of all the details but this is scary something like this could happen but then again we may not have the entire story yet either but still seemed like escessive use of force
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:19 AM
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Looked like trigger happy pos's.....sad.
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:20 AM
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Wow like you said we will have to see more details. If a LEO ask me to stop and I was innocent I would listen and would not try to drive off
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:22 AM
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IF the article is correct, I see nothing wrong with it. Lets for a second take away all the flowery Bullshit about his blog entries and him being a pastor. I realize the article would lack any emotional base or pinache in doing so, but lets look beyond the emotional pleas. Heck, the article would be two paragraphs if we did that.

It appears that he tried to avoid the officers in question and hit one of them with his car. Sorry, but a car is a deadly force weapon, and should be met with accordingly, as it was.

Again, for all those that will flame, this is based ON THE ARTICLE BEING ACCURATE

Now, the big question to me is did they identify themselves as LEO in the proper manner. If not, I could see the victim thinking he was being attacked by common thugs.
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Old 09-04-2009, 05:49 AM
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RI Builder you and I are along the same line of thinking, there was an interview with the store owner where it happened and he thought the two LEO's were actually shooting at each other, seems like there is a lot of gang type problems in this area. The store owner said he just saw the shooting and had no idea they were LEO's until after the fact.

I can see where they guy may have panicked and not recognized they were LEOs but I do agree from the LEO's point of view when he rammed you with a car I can see you feel threatened at that point
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:26 AM
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What difference does it make it he is a "pastor" or "minister?" I've never heard of a church that does drug or background testing to justify some higher standard for this occupation.

Not a good situation for the police or suspects no matter what the guys occupation was. Now if he had been a CPA, no way it was justified.
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Old 09-04-2009, 07:41 AM
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"Bankhead said agents approached Ayers for questioning but the pastor tried to avoid them, putting his car in reverse and striking one of the agents....."

If I hit a police officer with my car, I'd expect to be shot. Pretty simple.
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Old 09-04-2009, 08:39 AM
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As a LEO, the pastor hit one of the Officers with a car that is deadly force. The one thing I cant tell from the video is if anyone was in any kind of uniform or how undercover they were. I personally have never liked officers running around in plain clothes then trying to stop citizens as many times they can be mistaken for thugs or people dont think they are the police (sometimes understandably and sometimes they know but choose to ignore them). I have worked in plain clothes but I prefer a marked assignments for this very reason.
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:24 AM
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^^^^^^^

I'm right there with you! Give me a black and white and a set of dark blues anytime...




Take the "pastor" equation out of the situation.

Like all pastors, mininsters, priests, etc. are up-standing citizens...

Heck, a few of the churches that I am aware of are some of the biggest violators of zoning and code enforcement ordinances in the area.

And let's not bring Catholic priests into the conversation...

BTW- I am Catholic...
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Old 09-04-2009, 10:43 AM
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Video-


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl4a4..._embedded#t=12
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Old 09-04-2009, 11:40 AM
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Well, the video answered one question I had - the van was equipped with police lights and they were flashing.
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Old 09-05-2009, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Menzies View Post
Well, the video answered one question I had - the van was equipped with police lights and they were flashing.
you have incredible observation skills considering the cops where driving an Avalanche.
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Old 09-05-2009, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by My Gal View Post
Looking at that video, it looks like a car jacking attempt to me.
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Old 09-05-2009, 08:09 AM
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If undercover officers are going to be shooting ministers, I think it only fair that ministers be allowed to shoot undercover officers.
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Old 09-05-2009, 08:45 AM
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Hard to draw a good opinion from a single grainy vid, but....since that's what we do around here... Unless the LEO's can establish (and the burden of proof is on them) that they had clearly visible badges and loudly announced themselves they are guilty of a wrongful death.

I think the car as a deadly weapon argument is just looking for cover. If a cop is at my window or reaching in my car or standing in my front and I drive off, yes I'm guilty of assault with a deadly weapon (but even then, does that justify a shooting since by definition I am then fleeing and no longer a threat to the officer?) But if I am fleeing what I perceive as a carjacking or unlawful threat to myself and am in reverse and looking at the assumed threat to my front and run over the foot of someone that runs around to the rear of my car, then I think it's a reach to claim deadly weapon. That's right up there as an excuse with "I pulled you over because your license number is one digit off from a reported stolen car".

As to the lights on the Avalanche, we need to see the front of the truck, the lights appear on the roll bar brake light, but we don't know what the victim saw since the vid shows his car off to the side in the front.

What does seem clear is they shot someone that pretty clearly didn't need shooting. They're in trouble.
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Old 09-05-2009, 09:13 AM
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Unmarked car....
Plain clothes cops wielding guns......
Man who was NOT even the target of the investigation, (had simply given a ride to a woman who was) shot and killed

Those cops are going to be in trouble... and RIGHTLY so!
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Old 09-05-2009, 09:25 AM
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Which part of shooting an unarmed guy who is driving away from you is justifiable by any means? Even if he was totally guilty of whatver drug charges they are going to try to trump up for this, since when is that a death sentence?

That looked like a carjacking or robbery attempt. Or gang hit. Firing shots was totally unjustified. They should hang those cops.
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Old 09-05-2009, 10:34 AM
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Well it's good thing we are never gonna hear that crooked Ministers side of the story...and he was probably molesting little church kids, too.
I mean how dare he drive off when an undercover cop comes and smashes into him with guns a blazing.
Kill em all and let God sort em out... oh that's right, that slogan belongs to the marines...
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Old 09-05-2009, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by RI Builder View Post
IF the article is correct, I see nothing wrong with it. Lets for a second take away all the flowery Bullshit about his blog entries and him being a pastor. I realize the article would lack any emotional base or pinache in doing so, but lets look beyond the emotional pleas. Heck, the article would be two paragraphs if we did that.

It appears that he tried to avoid the officers in question and hit one of them with his car. Sorry, but a car is a deadly force weapon, and should be met with accordingly, as it was.

Again, for all those that will flame, this is based ON THE ARTICLE BEING ACCURATE

Now, the big question to me is did they identify themselves as LEO in the proper manner. If not, I could see the victim thinking he was being attacked by common thugs.
Bingo! its hard to tell by the article. On the other hand I have seen first hand with media spin the story the absolute wrong way with LEO and citizens
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Old 09-05-2009, 11:14 AM
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The undercover officers looked like thugs. I probably would have taken off too if thugs like that charged my car with guns. The red flashing light on the truck looked like something that those yahoos in the volunteer fire departments use.
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