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Freebird, I need some gun safe information/opinions

Old 07-28-2009, 06:45 PM
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Question Freebird, I need some gun safe information/opinions

Hey, I need some gun safe info, if you don't mind. First off, I have a WINCHESTER gun safe. I bought it in 2000 or 2001, don't remember exactly. It is designed to hold something like 20 or so long guns. It's a decent size, plenty of room for ammo & other suff.

My first question is how good is the Winchester gun safe? The door is a little over four inches thick. The sticker fire rating states one hour @ 1200 degrees internal temp rise 275 degrees max. It has a S & G spin dial combination lock. The safe empty took 3 guys to move and it was not easy. How secure (thief proof) is this safe?

My second set of questions, if you don't mind. I was in a local supply store the other day. The owner is an avid gun enthusiast & hunter. He has a small selection of LIBERTY gun safes for sale. One safe in particular caugh my eye. It's model # 8M10 and has interior hinges where my winchester has exterior hinges. I don't really like the exterior hinges...what say you?

Also, the Liberty is rated @ 83,000 BTU for 60 minutes...?????
The price tay for the liberty is $1,385.00 is this a good price for this safe?

Finally, what brand/brands do you sell? Do you have a safe equal to or compatible with the Liberty? can you beat that price enough to make it worth me driving to either meet you somewhere or pick up where ever...I will probably be ready to purchase another safe this fall.

I did purchase a small temporary safe, a RED HEAD from bass Pro. It's a 10 or 15 gun safe. It has an electronic key pad. The fire seal is a plastic tape type stuff that is supposed to expand when it gets really hot. Same with the Liberty. My Winchester has something that resembles the seal around an oven door. Which is better, IYO?? I'm going to sell the red Head and contribute that toward the next safe I purchase to keep. Any info you supply is greatly appreciated. thank you.
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Old 07-28-2009, 07:54 PM
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Doesn't matter what safe you buy -- give me a couple of minutes with one of these and I'll have it opened:

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Old 07-28-2009, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Eyeball View Post
Doesn't matter what safe you buy -- give me a couple of minutes with one of these and I'll have it opened:





Are you serious? Can one of those really open one of these gun safes? I don't know...if so, what the heck good is a safe anyway??? This is disturbing, to say the least.
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AGENT86 View Post
Hey, I need some gun safe info, if you don't mind. First off, I have a WINCHESTER gun safe. I bought it in 2000 or 2001, don't remember exactly. It is designed to hold something like 20 or so long guns. It's a decent size, plenty of room for ammo & other suff.

My first question is how good is the Winchester gun safe? The door is a little over four inches thick. The sticker fire rating states one hour @ 1200 degrees internal temp rise 275 degrees max. It has a S & G spin dial combination lock. The safe empty took 3 guys to move and it was not easy. How secure (thief proof) is this safe?
Your Winchester (made by Granite Security Safes at that time) is a good safe. I've carried both the Winchester and Granite safes (same thing) in the past. It will have a UL Residential Security Container rating as most major brands do. The 275 degree maximum temperature rise is a tricky way of saying it will stay below 350 degrees for one hour. The test starts with an ambient temperature of 75 degrees, and the temperature rises 275 degrees which of course equals 350 degrees. These guys (and some others) use the 275 figure as eye candy to have you see a lower number. As for it not being easy to move, your 3 guys just didn't know what they were doing. You'd best anchor it to the floor if you don't want one really smart guy (like me) to take it out.

Originally Posted by AGENT86 View Post
My second set of questions, if you don't mind. I was in a local supply store the other day. The owner is an avid gun enthusiast & hunter. He has a small selection of LIBERTY gun safes for sale. One safe in particular caugh my eye. It's model # 8M10 and has interior hinges where my winchester has exterior hinges. I don't really like the exterior hinges...what say you?
Exterior hinges are not a security issue as long as they are secured on the hinge side as is the case with your Winchester. If you don't like exterior hinges, why did you buy the Winchester?

Originally Posted by AGENT86 View Post
Also, the Liberty is rated @ 83,000 BTU for 60 minutes...?????
The price tay for the liberty is $1,385.00 is this a good price for this safe?
I don't carry Liberty, so I can't say whether or not that is a good price for that model. What I can tell you is that Liberty's new BTU ratings seem to be a bunch of BS that's impossible to decipher when comparing to other manufacturers (by design I'm sure). Pay close attention to that fire rating, and you'll see where they give a range as opposed to an absolute maximum.

Originally Posted by AGENT86 View Post
Finally, what brand/brands do you sell? Do you have a safe equal to or compatible with the Liberty? can you beat that price enough to make it worth me driving to either meet you somewhere or pick up where ever...I will probably be ready to purchase another safe this fall.
I carry Cannon, Champion, and Fort Knox. I'm sure I can save you some money, but it really depends on how far away you are from me as to how much I can save you. I don't have pricing at this time as I'm not in the office, but I'll look up the specs on that Liberty and post something for you tomorrow.

Originally Posted by AGENT86 View Post
I did purchase a small temporary safe, a RED HEAD from bass Pro. It's a 10 or 15 gun safe. It has an electronic key pad. The fire seal is a plastic tape type stuff that is supposed to expand when it gets really hot. Same with the Liberty. My Winchester has something that resembles the seal around an oven door. Which is better, IYO?? I'm going to sell the red Head and contribute that toward the next safe I purchase to keep. Any info you supply is greatly appreciated. thank you.
Redhead is a private label for Bass Pro and is currently a Chinese import. Granite used to build those too, just like they built your Winchester, but the Chinese came up with a cheaper safe for them. The expanding seals are MUCH better than the phony, asbestos-looking seals you see on some safes. These don't expand, and they won't give as much protection from smoke and water damage. Check out this link if you want more info on what to look for when purchasing a safe. www.SouthernSecuritySafes.com

Last edited by THT Mod 4; 07-29-2009 at 12:40 AM. Reason: removed ethnic slur
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Old 07-28-2009, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Eyeball View Post
Doesn't matter what safe you buy -- give me a couple of minutes with one of these and I'll have it opened:

Yeah, a couple of minutes would be about right for that home-made Sturdy you bragged about buying earlier.

BTW, I sold a Champion safe to the guy you tried to convince to make the same mistake you did.
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Old 07-29-2009, 12:30 AM
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Thanks, Freebird. I'll be interested in what you come up with. As far as why I bought a safe with exterior hinges, because it was the last safe they had at the place I purchased it. It seemed to me to be a good safe. It's really more of a recent thing, my preference for internal hinges.
Not really that big a deal, now that I know it's not a security risk.

I am going to bolt the safe to the floor this week. I have been meaning to do it anyway. With all the "stuff" in it, it really is quite heavy. But, I guess that wouldn't stop a determined pro.

If you can save me some $$, it would pay for me to pick it up. I can make a long weekend out of it and do some fishing in the area, or on the way up. Then, meet & pick up the safe when I'm ready to head back home. No sense in wasting a road trip without wetting a line. Like I said it will be this Fall when I'm ready to buy a new safe, probably the late Fall judging by my schedule now. I'm not in a huge hurry since my stuff is secure right now.
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Old 07-29-2009, 01:03 AM
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Looked at your website. I like the Cannon & Fort Knox safes. Allot of excellent information for someone like me that knows next to nothing about safes.
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Old 07-29-2009, 03:16 AM
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Freebird, I am curious also as to how easy one of these safes is to open, I have a Granite and keep guns,jewelery, photos and other items in mine. Is it better to put some of these items in a small safe depoist box at the bank.

My understanding is they will keep an "honest thief" out at least or your average house B&E person. I also like the idea that my guns are out of the reach of my kids curious friends, always more concerned with kids around the house when we are not home that think they can play with guns and my kids think nothing of them but you know how friends can be
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Old 07-29-2009, 03:29 AM
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A small plasma cutter will breach nearly all home safes in less than a minute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkiFkAM-Ok0
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:21 AM
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Every thief I know goes around town with a plasma cutter and an air compressor in the truck. With all that stuff taking up space there will not be as much empty truck to put my stuff in.

That grinder better have a lot of blades and batteries.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by tprice View Post
Freebird, I am curious also as to how easy one of these safes is to open, I have a Granite and keep guns,jewelery, photos and other items in mine. Is it better to put some of these items in a small safe depoist box at the bank.

My understanding is they will keep an "honest thief" out at least or your average house B&E person. I also like the idea that my guns are out of the reach of my kids curious friends, always more concerned with kids around the house when we are not home that think they can play with guns and my kids think nothing of them but you know how friends can be
As will be the case with every gun safe, your photos will be toast if your safe ever goes through a fire. Same with computer disks etc. You'll obviously get some protection, but the best bet is to purchase a small, fire-rated media safe for your more sensitive items, and place that safe inside your gun safe.

No doubt the safe deposit box offers the ultimate in protection, but they are fairly expensive and very inconvenient. They are not at all practical for gun storage, but your Granite will stop 95% of all home burglars from getting your goodies. I could sell you a safe that will stop 99% of them, and the other 1% you can't do anything about.

Originally Posted by Ludicrous View Post
A small plasma cutter will breach nearly all home safes in less than a minute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkiFkAM-Ok0
Yes, and if your valuables are not in a safe, it will make it even easier to lose them.

This scenario falls into the 1% I mentioned above. There is no such thing as a safe that is totally burglar-proof or fire-proof. Your average home burglar will not have a small plasma cutter and will likely be a druggy who will kick in a door or break a window. From there, he will grab whatever he can carry and run like hell. If you think you've got a hiding place these guys have never seen before, think again.

Most home burglars are in and out in less than 10 minutes. That's why you need a safe in addition to an alarm system. By the time anybody responds, chances are your valuables will be long gone. Wanna have some fun? Pretend you're a burglar and see how much stuff you could snatch and run with in 5 minutes time.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by AGENT86 View Post
Looked at your website. I like the Cannon & Fort Knox safes. Allot of excellent information for someone like me that knows next to nothing about safes.
I've got to take the young 'un to the dentist this morning, but I'll be back with some price examples later. I need to get up with the guy that handles my website and have him put in a link for Champion. I've only been carrying their line for a few months and keep forgetting to do this.

Here's a link for Champion... http://www.championsafe.com/

They fall squarely between the Cannon and Fort Knox brand both in terms of fire ratings and price. They will be most like the Liberty you looked at as Liberty and Champion were both started by the same guys. No need in doing the history lesson again.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Freeebird View Post
Wanna have some fun? Pretend you're a burglar and see how much stuff you could snatch and run with in 5 minutes time.
Okay.

When will you be out of the house today?


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Old 07-29-2009, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Snapper Head View Post
Okay.

When will you be out of the house today?


Big Al
Best bring more than that portable plasma cutter. Don't forget some treats for the puppies.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:00 AM
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Roger on that.

A D-9 dozer and that dog whispy guy.

Where's yer booze cabinet?


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Old 07-29-2009, 06:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Mist-Rest View Post
Every thief I know goes around town with a plasma cutter and an air compressor in the truck. With all that stuff taking up space there will not be as much empty truck to put my stuff in.

That grinder better have a lot of blades and batteries.
I'm thinking maybe eyeball was going to threaten the safe's owner with that grinder.

"Open that safe or I'll cut your balzoff!!!"
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Snapper Head View Post

Where's yer booze cabinet?


Big Al
It's the cabinet that's sitting on the Claymore next to the gun safe. Luckily the yard's not that big, and I had a few left over.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:09 AM
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You don't live in a home, you live in a compound.

Sorta like MJ (did).


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Old 07-29-2009, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by AGENT86 View Post


Are you serious? Can one of those really open one of these gun safes?

Yes. Any of those gun safes really are that easy to open with a hand held grinder and $5 cutting wheel. Anyone that has used a hand held grinding and steel cutting wheel (for legit purposes) knows this. I have such a tool, and a smorgasbord of grinding wheels -- yes, they will open your safe like popping open a sardine can.



Originally Posted by Ludicrous View Post

A small plasma cutter will breach nearly all home safes in less than a minute ...

Yeah, but you don't need a a plasma cutter. The advent of those hand held grinders and cutting wheels (available at any Home Depot) forever changed the vulnerability of gun safes. It is the one thing no safe manfr can guard against. Hell, the tool was made for cutting thru steel like a knife through warm butter.

Oh, but don't bother with the safe door -- it's the thickest part of most safes. Just cut off the entire top of the safe. Or if you have access to the back of the safe, use your grinder to open up a whole new door in a couple of minutes.
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Old 07-29-2009, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Freeebird View Post
Your average home burglar will not have a small plasma cutter and will likely be a druggy who will kick in a door or break a window. From there, he will grab whatever he can carry and run like hell. If you think you've got a hiding place these guys have never seen before, think again.
EXACTLY what happened to us last month. Some 20 year old local junkie kid jimmied our slider open (it was locked, but didn't have the brace in the door - my bad) on a Monday morning around 10am - we were at work of course. Was in our house for 20 minutes or so - grabbed only the wife's gold jewelry, some of the kids savings bonds (?), and my grandmother's antique gold charm bracelet. He also took some old Rx meds - painkillers from back spasms I had, and from my recent knee surgery that I had not used.

He knew right where to find what he wanted - he didn't even mess our house up - he actually put stuff back where it was so we wouldn't have known he was even there most likely.

We were SUPER lucky that this punk's cousin happened to see his truck in our driveway - knowing the punk was a junkie, the cousin called the kid's father and they caught him coming out of our house! We do not know the family at all - just a random break-in.

The uncle and the punk's father ended up holding the kid for the cops - they roughed him up really good too before the cops got there. The punk had his infant in his car with the windows rolled up in our driveway. He had just shot up heroin before all of this.

Charged with 4 counts of felony possesion of controlled substance, felony B & E, felony theft, and child endangerment.

The sad thing is that we understand the punk's family are really good people and they are literally at the end of their rope with the kid. They didn't bail him out. Trial upcoming. We were super lucky to get our stuff back.

I need a safe.

Dave
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