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Very sad crash in north florida.

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Very sad crash in north florida.

Old 04-13-2009, 07:05 AM
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Default Very sad crash in north florida.

This happened about a mile from my parents house. I was on my parents dock with my family when these people went by on their way to st augustine. I spacificaly noticed this boat because of how many people were on board. very sad day

This is the story from the Florida times union


A pleasure boat carrying a group of friends returning from an outing Sunday at a St. Augustine restaurant slammed into an anchored tug in Palm Valley, killing five and leaving nine others with serious injuries, according to police, family members and a friend who slept late and missed the trip.
A Jacksonville Beach man and a California woman are among the dead, grieving family members told the Times-Union this morning.
Six people are recovering at Shands Jacksonville hospital. Two are in critical condition, 1 in serious and three are listed as fair, a hospital spokeswoman said. It's unclear whether the remaining survivors are still hospitalized.
At least seven of those aboard the 22-foot Crownline on the Intracoastal Waterway were from Jacksonville Beach. Five were from California, including three women who arrived in town Friday and a father and son. It’s unclear where the other two were from.
The wreck happened about 6:30 p.m., in a section of the waterway with no posted speed limit. The scene is about a mile north of the Palm Valley Bridge in a part of the waterway that is maybe 100 yards across, narrower than some sections of the Intracoastal. The scene is off the 100 block of Roscoe Boulevard South.
The group was coming from the Conch House after an afternoon of reggae music, something many of them had been doing every Sunday for at least month, said Allen Oshier, a friend of the group who overslept and missed the outing.
Oshier said the 14 were riding in a boat with a capacity of 12 occupants. He said the group had previously always had a designated driver and insured that there were enough life jackets aboard to meet the boat’s capacity. He said the boat had been stopped several times in the past month by police, who were concerned about seeing so many people aboard. Oshier indicated that no citations were written.
Oshier, 25, said one of the survivors told him that a woman the group picked up at the restaurant was driving the boat, though the boat owner was aboard. He said he was told it passed the Palm Valley bridge and the accident happened moments later.
The area of the accident is known by boaters as "the ditch" because the man-made channel narrows there.
The boat struck the tug, which was alongside a barge that was helping build a dock for a home under construction off Roscoe Road. Oshier said a friend of his on the boat was alerted about trouble just before the crash.
“He [the survivor] said the lady yelled my friend’s name and he looked up and they were heading right for it,” Oshier said. “He tried to steer away, but it was too late.”
No victim identities were released by authorities.
Among the dead are Robert Trenton Craig, 23, a Jacksonville man who moved to the area from California about a year ago, his brother said. Olivia Carretero, one of the three women from California, also died in the accident, her father said.
At least three people were airlifted to hospitals and were listed in critical condition Sunday, said Jeremy Robshaw of the St. Johns County Fire and Rescue. The conditions of the others were uncertain. Craig’s brother, Jason Martin, 32, said he just saw his brother two days ago when Craig left him and other family after visiting them in Santa Rosa, Calif., for a week. He said they played games and caught up on missed time.
Martin said his brother returned home to Jacksonville to attend the gathering with friends. Martin said his brother was single and worked in the area while also traveling frequently. Craig moved to Jacksonville from California about a year ago, his brother said.
"He was carefree, hilarious, spontaneous," Martin said. "He was always there for his friends." News of Craig's death left his family devastated. "He was too young to have this happen to him," Martin said.
Henry Carretero, of Sonoma County, Calif., said his 23-year-old daughter and two friends left California Friday for the Jacksonville area to spend time with friends they grew up with on the West Coast. Carretero was told his daughter's friends called their parents to say they were OK after the accident, but he hadn't heard from his daughter. He learned hours later from the medical examiner's office that she had died, he said.
"She was just a great person," Carretero said. "She just like to have fun with her friends and everyone she knew loved her."

An account of the accident from Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission spokeswoman Joy Hill said the boat, a 2000 model, struck the right side rear of a 25-foot tug moored at a dock under construction.

A barge with a crane was also moored there, said Lt. Steve Zukowsky, an investigator with the commission. Robshaw said the pier was under construction and rescuers had to lay down planking before they could get to the crash victims. He said rescuers were troubled by the loss of life, but took pride in being able to help most of the boat occupants.
"You obviously prepare for this and I think we did the best we could," he said. Robshaw said he could not recall a worse accident in recent memory in St. Johns County.
Two neighbors said it appeared that the boat made contact with the barge. “It just looked like the boat was kind of beached on the barge,” said Herb Davis, who watched some of the rescue effort through binoculars from his home down the street.
Davis said the accident had already happened before he walked out onto his dock about 7:30 p.m. and saw emergency crews down the street and helicopters passing overhead.
“There was a lot of moaning,” he said, adding he could hear distressed cries despite being several homes away. “It was very clear, this lady was screaming so loud,” he said.
The speed of the boat, the number of occupants, and the potential for weather or alcohol to have influenced events all remained unanswered questions, Zukowski said. He also wasn’t sure how many of the boaters were wearing life vests or whether the boat was overloaded.
He described the crash as one of the worst tragedies he had seen in a 17-year career.
Oshier said his friends called him about 11 a. m. to invite him on the trip, but he said he’d overslept and decided not to go. He said they called him about 3 p.m. and invited him to the Conch House, but he decided not to. When asked if he felt lucky he stayed in, Oshier said sadly, “I guess. I don’t know.”
Oshier said he spent much of the night and early morning at Shands Jacksonville hospital with more than a dozen friends awaiting word on the survivors. He said the local victims from the accident and others are part of a tight-knit group of friends from Jacksonville Beach. Oshier said he knew more than half the people on the boat. He said he and Craig were planning to get an apartment together.
It’s just a sad moment,” Oshier said. “We can do nothing but just pray for the people who are still alive.”

Last edited by gashogg; 04-13-2009 at 07:08 AM. Reason: miss spell
Old 04-13-2009, 07:21 AM
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6:30 pm should have been enough day light?? How in the world did this tragedy happen? WOW
Old 04-13-2009, 07:37 AM
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I'd bet the driver's view was obstucted by those sitting in the bow, assuming of course this was a bowrider. I remember as a kid having my dad t-bone a buoy as us kids in the bow were blocking his view. Thankfully it ended nowhere near like this, but it did a pretty good number on the boat.
Old 04-13-2009, 07:53 AM
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With that many people, I am sure there were distractions and speed will play a part.

I still think there should be some sort of lisence to be able to operate a boat and even if th capicity states 12, there is a pound limitations that should not be exceeded.
Old 04-13-2009, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kingair View Post
With that many people, I am sure there were distractions and speed will play a part.

I still think there should be some sort of lisence to be able to operate a boat and even if th capicity states 12, there is a pound limitations that should not be exceeded.
Folks like this operator can't be taught "to be safe". Hate to say it but these things come with the freedom for the majority who are responsible/safe operators and they should not have to be held accountable. It's sad but the old American way-personal responsability with accountability is best.
Old 04-13-2009, 09:18 AM
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the girl driving the boat had not driven a boat very much if any at all.they left Reggaie sunday at a local waterfront bar so I'm would not be supprised if the drinking does not play a role in the accident
Old 04-13-2009, 09:19 AM
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Stephen there is both in place, it is either or and can be both.
First and fore most, there has to be "proper" seating for all passengers....the floor does not count nor does sitting on someone's lap.

A 22' boat with a dozen people, I'm certain both the people and weight restrictions were violated big time. If the kids beached the Crownline on a tub boat they had to be traveling at a pretty good speed.

One has to feel for the families, but, stupid is as stupid does.
Old 04-13-2009, 09:20 AM
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Booze and boats = disaster

No booze on my boat!
Old 04-13-2009, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tarnold View Post
Booze and boats = disaster

No booze on my boat!

x2
Old 04-13-2009, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by tarnold View Post
Booze and boats = disaster

No booze on my boat!
Originally Posted by tommyr904 View Post
x2
Good, more for my boat.
Old 04-13-2009, 01:29 PM
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Garrett, I am not aware of any law that requires "proper" seating. If that were the case, center consoles could potentially only allow 2 or 3 depending on the seating. The law says all passengers must be "in" the boat while moving. According to officers I have discussed this with, that means no sitting on the gunnels, sunpad, bow with your legs hanging over the side of the boat etc.

I traverse the area in question alot. I also run my boat an extreme amount at night due to leaving or returning from fishing trips. Some complain that I go too slow at night. But, I will simply slow down until I can see and figure out where I am. That is just the way it is.

“He [the survivor] said the lady yelled my friend’s name and he looked up and they were heading right for it,” Oshier said. “He tried to steer away, but it was too late.” This tells me that the driver had no idea how to run the boat or STOP IT.

I am not saying these people were idiots, I feel for them and their family but I am saying there are an awful lot of idiots driving boats that have no idea how to do it properly. There is no law, no license and no training that will prevent this type of accident, IMHO.
Old 04-13-2009, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by tommyr904 View Post
x2
x3
Old 04-14-2009, 12:17 AM
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Originally Posted by tarnold View Post
Booze and boats = disaster

No booze on my boat!
There has been little discussion (so far) of the dangers of alcohol not only for the captain but for passengers / crew. Victims of boating accidents need to be capable of protecting themselves after the accident, including swimming, re-boarding vessel, following instructions, etc. Additionally (though not likely significant in this episode) alcohol increases the risk of hypothermia due to its effect on circulation.

As captains we have a responsibility to assure that passengers are briefed and able to comply with safety procedures/instructions - impaired passengers are at least in part the responsibility of the captain. The "no booze" rule is good sense and reflects your commitment to safety.

Whle we all feel for the victims and their families, and await the official reports, this is a good opportunity for boaters to reflect on safety procedures and good common sense, just as happened with the recent NFL player accident.
Old 04-14-2009, 07:35 AM
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I don't think the article stated there was alcohol on board. It DOES say they were at a restaurant. Why speculate? As far as carrying alcohol on board, I do it on every trip out. We enjoy some drinks on the water, but we don't abuse it. Be responsible; act responsible.
Old 04-14-2009, 09:12 AM
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This is a tragedy, and a very sad day for the families of those involved. That being said, I just don't understand the wall of silence that people like to put up around events. We are curious, and have analytical and assessment skills that shouldn't be suppressed when the slow communications infrastructure (media and LE), often never engages in full and honest disclosure anyway.

Given the circumstances, the chances that this was not the result of one or more of the unsafe boating practices that has been hypothesized here are extremely low, and using the topical nature of the incident to remind everyone about the dangers of those practices does a lot more good than harm on balance.
Old 04-14-2009, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by JAGSARE1 View Post
Garrett, I am not aware of any law that requires "proper" seating.
You may be right Rich, all I'm going by is what the water cops say up here. If they say it so, well I guess I'll just have to take there word for it.
Maybe this is the same thing as you are not allowed to drive around in the back of a pickup truck up here without proper seating and seat belts, but I've seen a lot of different States that allow it. Here the driver/ owner would be busted and those in the back of the truck would have to find their own way home.
Old 04-14-2009, 11:20 AM
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Right now, for all I have been able to read(in other words, I don't have first hand information), the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that alcohol was involved. They left a well known establishment where the drinking has been bordering "out of hand" for a few years. Generally a younger crowd, waterfront and alot of drunk boaters leaving the place. There is rumor that this boat was told to leave because they had a keg onboard(cannot confirm now). Eyewitness said your couldn't miss this boat leaving because there were people hanging everywhere off of it. The owner was 37yo, partying with kids but was not driving the boat. A person picked up at the establishment was driving and saw the object they were about to hit and alerted another passenger who attempted to turn the wheel. Clearly, the female driver could not steer the boat or stop it. Probably did not know how.

So far, I have read "internet discussions" where the blame began to be placed on everyone BUT the boat captain. It was LEO's fault for not catching them, the bars fault for serving them, etc. Sooner or later the barge owner will be blamed or the home owner for having his dock "too far out" which is probably not the case. Some discussion that there was mechanical problems and although it could happen, I would bet against it.

I hope I am wrong, although it will be irrelevant because the damage is already done but the final outcome will be a combination of overloaded boat, drunk passengers and a drunk or inexperienced(or both) driver. The area of the ICW in question is a straight section with no obstacles. No valid excuse for this to happen. I am afraid this will be a bad joke of "if you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk".

I will say that the owner of the boat is directly responsible no matter the outcome. He should have been driving his own boat. If he was too drunk to do so and let someone else, still his fault because he should not have put himself in this condition.

No doubt there will be new laws governing that part of the ICW like speed limits which, although governments answer, will have nothing to do with the root cause. If alcohol is the root cause, there are already laws against that.
Old 04-14-2009, 11:50 AM
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The only observation I have is that 14 people on a 22 foot boat seems like a bunch of people. I have a 22'CC (albeit, it is a CC) and couldnt imagine 14 people on there.
Old 04-14-2009, 12:19 PM
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"First and fore most, there has to be "proper" seating for all passengers....the floor does not count nor does sitting on someone's lap."

In Florida, there is no such violations or requirements in any boating laws, so first and foremost is out. We have a catch all called careless operation for issues like bow riding (hanging feet over the bow of the vessel) and possibly sitting on gunnels (but I know very few marine officers that write tickets for this, I never did). Jags is right on, a CC is absolutely the most dangerous for being thrown out of as it has very limited seating...

This boat will surely be considered overloaded... prayers to the families
Old 04-14-2009, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JAGSARE1 View Post
Right now, for all I have been able to read(in other words, I don't have first hand information), the circumstantial evidence is overwhelming that alcohol was involved. They left a well known establishment where the drinking has been bordering "out of hand" for a few years. Generally a younger crowd, waterfront and alot of drunk boaters leaving the place. There is rumor that this boat was told to leave because they had a keg onboard(cannot confirm now). Eyewitness said your couldn't miss this boat leaving because there were people hanging everywhere off of it. The owner was 37yo, partying with kids but was not driving the boat. A person picked up at the establishment was driving and saw the object they were about to hit and alerted another passenger who attempted to turn the wheel. Clearly, the female driver could not steer the boat or stop it. Probably did not know how.

So far, I have read "internet discussions" where the blame began to be placed on everyone BUT the boat captain. It was LEO's fault for not catching them, the bars fault for serving them, etc. Sooner or later the barge owner will be blamed or the home owner for having his dock "too far out" which is probably not the case. Some discussion that there was mechanical problems and although it could happen, I would bet against it.

I hope I am wrong, although it will be irrelevant because the damage is already done but the final outcome will be a combination of overloaded boat, drunk passengers and a drunk or inexperienced(or both) driver. The area of the ICW in question is a straight section with no obstacles. No valid excuse for this to happen. I am afraid this will be a bad joke of "if you don't like the way I drive, stay off the sidewalk".

I will say that the owner of the boat is directly responsible no matter the outcome. He should have been driving his own boat. If he was too drunk to do so and let someone else, still his fault because he should not have put himself in this condition.

No doubt there will be new laws governing that part of the ICW like speed limits which, although governments answer, will have nothing to do with the root cause. If alcohol is the root cause, there are already laws against that.
Well said - it's a shame that our legal system will allow innocent parties to be dragged into this because they have "deep pockets". No matter what laws are applicable, in the absence of personal responsibility - and in a boating culture that promotes and romanticizes drinking on the water - this type of accident will happen again no matter how much regulation/policing takes place.

Last edited by mturnerb; 04-14-2009 at 12:38 PM.

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