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Why are people Applauding the possible loss of GM and Chrysler?!!

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Why are people Applauding the possible loss of GM and Chrysler?!!

Old 04-07-2009, 09:40 AM
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Default Why are people Applauding the possible loss of GM and Chrysler?!!

For the life of me I cannot understand why people are actually happy about the possible loss of these two American companies. If it were not for these two and others we would all be speaking German today! GM for all its faults made the 2 1/2 ton truck that allowed us to win the war in europe. They also made the M-19 Helcat Tank Destroyer the M-3 Grease gun. Chrysler was the major supplier of the M-4 Sherman Tank. Why can't we be a little nationalistic and "Buy American"? Why do people think that buying a foreign brand car that is assembled here in the states is the same thing? ;?
Old 04-07-2009, 09:50 AM
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I do not necessarily think people are applauding the loss of GM and Chrysler as much as they are applauding the efforts of capitalism. Socialism simply does not work, and every grant (yes I purposely used the word grant and not loan) the govt gave these companies from our tax dollars, was simply money flushed down the toilet.

Our government kept giving money to businesses that have gone the way of a buggy whip company. Products nobody wants, operating models that are flawed from the word go, non existant strategies vis a vis the market to turn these companies around, legacy costs that are out of control, and the list goes on.

I do not applaud the failure of any company, however, I can not sit idly by and watch my tax dollars be pissed away on entiites that are actually set up to fail, and then watch as proper stipulations are not put in place before giving the grant (word used again on purpose).

I do not applaud the failure of GM or Chrysler, but I do applaud the success of a capitalistic market.

How much money would we have saved if GM went BK months ago, like they should have?

Oh, and for the simple fact that the government gave my money to GM and Chrysler, without consulting me, I will NEVER in my life own a product from either one (not that I would any Chrysler to begin with).
Old 04-07-2009, 10:13 AM
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Well put RI Builder.

I'm very unlikely to ever buy new from the Big Three again just because of the UAW. They put the screws to these companies for decades and now we (tax payers) are having to make up for it.
Old 04-07-2009, 10:16 AM
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I completely agree RI and what did our Government do the for Elco and Higgins boat companies who built the PT boats ran by Packard engines? You know , the boats that helped win World War Two? Notta, nothing, Ziltch..........................
Old 04-07-2009, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by pncmatias View Post

For the life of me I cannot understand why people are actually happy about the possible loss of these two American companies.

Those would be the people that are holding vast numbers of shares of Ford stock.
Old 04-07-2009, 10:58 AM
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I know this is very sensitive subject for many people. Unfortunately, the unions are self-obsolescing themselves. There was a time that unions were an absolute necessity. Today the reason for their existence is questionable by many, particularly those who are not union members. Workers/human rights were at one time flagrantly violated by industry. Unions brought workers together and gave them a voice to be reckoned with. With the progress of time and society, laws were enacted to protect people, workers and human rights and effectually took the place of what unions once represented. Unfortunately, unions became very politically oriented and engaged in an element of human nature called greed, although some would dispute such an accusation. The unions became very powerful financially and instead of becoming a partner in a business they eventually became what many would consider to be the general partner. I believe many people are applauding the fact that some of the car companies might declare bankruptcy only for the fact that this appears to be the ONLY legal method of eliminating the unions from the business. In this case, bankruptcy is a way of getting rid of a partner who you no longer want to be a partner with. As I already stated, this is a sensitive subject for many. It appears that the current reality is if you are union then obviously you are against being eliminated. If you are not union then you want to see them eliminated from dictating how business is to be operated and at what cost. Unfortunately for the unions and the auto makers to exist, the combination of the two given the current contractual criteria is NOT mathematically possible unless the public is willing to pay substantially more money for a vehicle than they currently are today. This is likewise not mathematical reality. I am providing a perspective to the OP and not looking for debate. Good luck to all.
Old 04-07-2009, 11:01 AM
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Supposed to be a $5000 Chinese car in ayera. Maybe Iraqi and Israelimobiles after that. I still will never buy a foreign car. Why do we give trillions to Wall Street millionairres basically no strings attached and then require GM to change manages (probably a good idea) and put in all sorts of conditions on the $ (also a good idea). We have become a country that values $$ above all else and worship the money changers that create such complicated financial instruments that it is inpossible to control. Actualy working and creating a product is for shmucks. Hey we got our foreign manufactured electronic gizmos - who needs any balance of trade - they can buy out debt....

I see no true free market capitalism in a system of a few powerful entities too big to fail. Oligarcy maybe or corportacracy (sp?). But this has not been a free market for a very long time. I would call this system capitalism when profitable - socialism for the rich when there are loses - brutal capitalism for the rest.
Old 04-07-2009, 11:03 AM
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To build on what RI said, if either GM or Chrysler was to go bankrupt. The accured knowledge and the facilities would not just disappear nor would the machinery and buildings just lay fallow for ever. It would give investors and businessmen the oppurtunity to purchase equipment and plants at very cheap levels and start a new competative business without the weight of old debts and an over reaching government making decisions for them.

With companies that do not respond to the needs/wants of the consumer this is the way business is allowed to continue to evolve. Should we still listen to 45s instead of CDs, fly in prop planes instead of jets, listen to radio instead of watch tv, read letters from other THT members instead of an internet forum, etc just because some do not want to change the way things are currently structured?
Old 04-07-2009, 11:05 AM
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I'm not happy about those companies going under. And I do buy american.
But I have two different thoughts on who was helping win the war, and who is going under currently.

Don't want to get into a Union debate, but these are the images in my head.....

helped win the war....


Going bankrupt....
Old 04-07-2009, 11:08 AM
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Default Why are people Applauding the possible loss of GM and Chrysler?!!

I am not a fan of the union either I think that the need has passed it is more like legal blackmail today.
Old 04-07-2009, 11:23 AM
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I applaud the failure of every company that has crappy management and even worse employees. Capitalism is based on the concept known as "survival of the fittest". While I understand many Americans no longer like capitalism....as a Nation, for the last 300 years we have done pretty well under that economic system.
Old 04-07-2009, 11:45 AM
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Neither one is going anywhere. Don't worry. As far as people being upset about "our" taxdollars being used for bailouts, which have been happening for years by the way, they are no longer our taxdollars once they have been either paid to, or taken by our gov't. If you don't like how the money is being spent, then vote out the ones doing the spending. That is how this system is supposed to work. I think helping companies that are the cornerstone of our economy and culture is a better way of spending taxdollars than some uber-liberal socialistic save the whales/elementary school sex-ed/free healthcare/ban this and that/lets feel sorry for the terrorists program.
Old 04-07-2009, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by pncmatias View Post
For the life of me I cannot understand why people are actually happy about the possible loss of these two American companies. If it were not for these two and others we would all be speaking German today! GM for all its faults made the 2 1/2 ton truck that allowed us to win the war in europe. They also made the M-19 Helcat Tank Destroyer the M-3 Grease gun. Chrysler was the major supplier of the M-4 Sherman Tank. Why can't we be a little nationalistic and "Buy American"? Why do people think that buying a foreign brand car that is assembled here in the states is the same thing? ;?
You are kidding me right.

We owe all that money to these companies because you think they had everyting to do with the freedoms we have in this company. Guess what!! They have made BILLIONS and BILLIONS over the years. The american Taxpayer does not owe them shit.

I would rather see the bailout $$ we are giveing to the failing auto companies go to the vets in this country and their families. They are the ones who got their asses shot at, and blown up for our freedoms..and they did it because they wanted to not because they were making money doing it.

You think the auto makers would have done whatever they did if there was no money in it.. Please
Old 04-07-2009, 11:59 AM
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If GM and Chrysler are so "American" why do they build so many cars and trucks in Mexico and Canada?
Get real, "Buy American" is not even possible anymore.
Old 04-07-2009, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by MacCTD View Post
If GM and Chrysler are so "American" why do they build so many cars and trucks in Mexico and Canada?
Get real, "Buy American" is not even possible anymore.


Being "American Made used to mean more then the country that the corp. head quarters was in.
Old 04-07-2009, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Tireless View Post
I applaud the failure of every company that has crappy management and even worse employees. Capitalism is based on the concept known as "survival of the fittest". While I understand many Americans no longer like capitalism....as a Nation, for the last 300 years we have done pretty well under that economic system.

You can't free market manage a company that has goverment controlled (via Lobby etc) Labor. Theres a pink elephant in the room, you cant pay $75 an hour (effective) to bolt wheels and tires on.
Old 04-07-2009, 02:00 PM
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There was another thread here not long ago, that went so far over my head I couldn't see it when I looked up, but it mentioned the "real" unemployment rate of 16% due to "underemployment".

For years I've been coming home from projects at UAW controlled plants and telling my wife that these people were seriously "over employed". Making over 6 figures with no education/aspiration/ambition.

I think people are sick of "over employment" especially if they spent 75K for college and are doing tons worse than these guys. Now we have to pay for it.

I don't like hearing the Wall Street Analogy either. I oppose those bailouts as well. I've had enough of the argument that "we can save the billionaires on wall street but we can't save the auto industy ?". BS.

A bailout is a bailout no matter what side of the isle it comes from.

I seriously do not believe the frustration with the auto industry is anti-american. Nationalism is alive and well in this country, but it doesn't mean give all my money to someone else because someone is DC thinks its right.
Old 04-07-2009, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MacCTD View Post
If GM and Chrysler are so "American" why do they build so many cars and trucks in Mexico and Canada?
Get real, "Buy American" is not even possible anymore.
And you can thank the unions for that!
Old 04-07-2009, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RI Builder View Post
I do not necessarily think people are applauding the loss of GM and Chrysler as much as they are applauding the efforts of capitalism. Socialism simply does not work, and every grant (yes I purposely used the word grant and not loan) the govt gave these companies from our tax dollars, was simply money flushed down the toilet.

Our government kept giving money to businesses that have gone the way of a buggy whip company. Products nobody wants, operating models that are flawed from the word go, non existant strategies vis a vis the market to turn these companies around, legacy costs that are out of control, and the list goes on.

I do not applaud the failure of any company, however, I can not sit idly by and watch my tax dollars be pissed away on entiites that are actually set up to fail, and then watch as proper stipulations are not put in place before giving the grant (word used again on purpose).

I do not applaud the failure of GM or Chrysler, but I do applaud the success of a capitalistic market.

How much money would we have saved if GM went BK months ago, like they should have?

Oh, and for the simple fact that the government gave my money to GM and Chrysler, without consulting me, I will NEVER in my life own a product from either one (not that I would any Chrysler to begin with).
You must drive a ford they will get there turn.
Old 04-07-2009, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by pncmatias View Post
I am not a fan of the union either I think that the need has passed it is more like legal blackmail today.
The real issue is that we allowed foreign car companies to build cars here in the USA without unions. This gave our USA firms a competitive disadvantage.

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