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Midair collion

Old 12-08-2008, 09:34 AM
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Default Midair collion

Flight training perhaps. They say training mission, not sure what that means. That is a big area to collide head on.

BROWARD COUNTY, Fla. -- Rescue crews have found the wreckage of two planes that crashed in the Everglades on Saturday.

A U.S. Coast Guard search and rescue helicopter spotted three areas of debris approximately 2.7 miles southwest of Holiday Park at 7:55 a.m. on Sunday.

On Monday morning, investigators from the National Transportation Safety Board and the Broward Sheriff's Office used airboats to search the crash site for victims and clues into what caused the crash.

"Once the aircraft is out, we'll start laying it out and try to find the order that the aircraft collided. We'll use that with radar data to find out what happened at the time," said Eric Alleyne of the NTSB.

Finding answers, however, won't be easy.

"It's a dense marsh, it's the Everglades," Alleyne said.

It’s believed the two aircraft, a single-engine Cessna 172 and twin-engine Piper PA-44 Seminole, took off from North Perry and Fort Lauderdale/Hollywood International airports, respectively, late Saturday afternoon. Both planes headed for the practice airspace over the Everglades, and they crashed midair, officials said.

At some point, the FAA was notified that the planes, operating under Visual Flight Rules (VFR), were overdue from training flights.

The NTSB said an emergency locator transmitter sounded, alerting authorities to the crash, and a radar indicated that the planes struck each other.

Officials said two people were aboard each plane and the four are presumed dead.

The FAA told Local 10 it appeared both were participating in training exercises when they collided midair.

Investigators from the NTSB and the county medical examiner left early Monday on airboats to look through the three debris fields located about 3 miles southwest of Everglades Holiday Park.
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:52 AM
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That's scary. For the Ft Lauderdale boat show,my buddy and I took a private jet(Net Jets) from RI,at 37000 feet,I could not believe how close other private aircraft were in relation to us. Also the amount of planes was scary,we were constantly passing one or being passed.
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Old 12-08-2008, 10:18 AM
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ant1 - 12/8/2008 11:52 AM

That's scary. For the Ft Lauderdale boat show,my buddy and I took a private jet(Net Jets) from RI,at 37000 feet,I could not believe how close other private aircraft were in relation to us. Also the amount of planes was scary,we were constantly passing one or being passed.
The airspace is quite crowded, and this is only local traffic in and out of miami.

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Old 12-08-2008, 01:34 PM
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Default RE: Midair collion

When you are at 37,000 feet you are (by law) under IFR, with an air traffic controller managing your flight in effect. Even at lower altitudes, the pilot (if qualified, and airplane also) can elect to make the flight under IFR. (Training flights involving a lot of maneuvering don't fit the paradigm of IFR flight, however).

I don't know the exact parameters but I fly IFR a lot and they generally keep other planes spaced 3-5 miles laterally unless I have a visual on them, and at least 500 feet above or below me. At 37,000 feet, there would always be 1000 feet of clearance.

Vertical clearance is much more useful than 1,000 feet sounds at first glance.

The real problem is when VFR aircraft are cruisiing in the same area. Right now, our brilliant government is rapidly running out of air traffic controllers (because they were all hired roughly at the same time, when Reagan tossed out the striking ATC union members) as they retire en mass. Many VFR pilots would like to "join" the system using a voluntary system where they get "flight following" but the overworked ATC folks often refuse this, out of sheer volume.


But hey, we must spend billions to prop up unions in Michigan, so running out of air traffic controllers is just one of those sacrifices we all must make, I guess.

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Old 12-08-2008, 01:48 PM
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Just sounds like 2 VFR operations in the practice area not doing the "see & avoid" rule, not clearing the area before procedure and not on the local frequency.

These would have been basic pilot training situations in visual conditions. ATC not involved.

Sorry for all involved.

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Old 12-08-2008, 02:02 PM
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" Many VFR pilots would like to "join" the system using a voluntary system where they get "flight following" but the overworked ATC folks often refuse this, out of sheer volume."


ggibby- ATC has been rejecting flight following long before Reagan did his thing. Thier position is if you want radar, file a IFR flight plan and get seperation too. It's optional for them and they have never been warm to the implied responsability of separation VFR pilots think comes with it.
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Old 12-08-2008, 02:05 PM
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They were probably doing figure eights. That exercise demands alot of attention for new pilots; multi tasking at the highest level.

Regarding VFR/IFR. Privates do not always file a flight plan. There is new guidance and it is detailed so I will not discuss it here. If you fly than you should know the rules.
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Old 12-08-2008, 02:28 PM
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Default Re: Midair collion

One high wing, one low wing. My guess is the 172 was at a lower altitude coming up, never saw the Seminole who never saw him. There's something to be said for clearing turns...

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Old 12-08-2008, 03:35 PM
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I swear and someone may disagree, but flying a 172 for me was harder than flying a Kingair. You really have to be on your toes.
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Old 12-08-2008, 05:57 PM
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That area where they collided is just west of an old air strip called Opa Locka West. It's a runway out on the edge of the Everglades where new pilots can practice touch and goes. Just west of U.S. Hwy 27. There is a lot of air traffic there. Now the strip is used for (believe it or not), drag racing on weekends. But the air space there is used for training maneuvers for new pilots.
On Sunday Morning I saw the Broward County Sherriff's Office escorting a procession of flatbed trucks west on Griffin road towards the area. The thought was in my mind at that time that what would they be escorting a bunch of flatbed trucks for. What would they be in such a hurry to load on those trucks. Apparently the pilotst had left on their flights on Saturday. And the crash happened that day. But the debris wasn't discovered until Sunday morning.Then this morning I read the bad news. It's too bad. All I can say is that I hope God will bless the families of those who perished in that terrible accident.
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Old 12-08-2008, 06:07 PM
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Sounds almost a bit like ValueJet, or atleast the part of crashing in the everglades. With so much area to fly in, it is hard to believe two planes could collide midair, but accidents happen, and luckily they don't happen too often but I'd think there are a lot of close calls.

King: I thought a 172 is a basic type of plane? I thought flying your style plane would be much more difficult than a little cesna.
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Old 12-08-2008, 06:11 PM
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King, I own a 172 on steroids, a Hawk XP, ifr, big engine, faster and more payload. My dream plane is a King Air. I'll gladly trade ya!!!

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Old 12-08-2008, 06:25 PM
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CMP - 12/8/2008 4:28 PM

One high wing, one low wing. My guess is the 172 was at a lower altitude coming up, never saw the Seminole who never saw him. There's something to be said for clearing turns...

CMP

I think CMP in right on. Many years ago, I saw several accidents of that nature occur in a short period of time, while I was flying out in Ca. That was at a time and place where airspace wasn't crowded at all. In one instance, a Piper Cherokee Arrow and a Cessna 150 were both on final approach, and the Piper landed right on top of the 150.

BTW; to the post about a 172 being difficult to fly; I don't get that at all. I have many hundreds of hours flying a 172, and although there would be no comparison to flying a Kingair, but from grassy stripSTOL to wet-sand beaches, it quickly became my favorite aircraft.
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Old 12-08-2008, 06:58 PM
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bstnsportsfan - 12/8/2008 8:07 PM

Sounds almost a bit like ValueJet, or atleast the part of crashing in the everglades. With so much area to fly in, it is hard to believe two planes could collide midair, but accidents happen, and luckily they don't happen too often but I'd think there are a lot of close calls.

King: I thought a 172 is a basic type of plane? I thought flying your style plane would be much more difficult than a little cesna.
My point was that while flying a 172, there is alot more input while flying. A turbo prop has auto pilot, auto feather and such. When I was learning, for me, I had a hard time because in a 172 the engine wants to pull you while taxing to one side. I know it sounds funny but mabe it was the ex warrant officer teaching me, scarry.

My brother in law flies for north west, set it and forget it, I tell him. It flies and lands by itself.
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Old 12-08-2008, 07:01 PM
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CMP - 12/8/2008 8:11 PM

King, I own a 172 on steroids, a Hawk XP, ifr, big engine, faster and more payload. My dream plane is a King Air. I'll gladly trade ya!!!

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Old 12-08-2008, 08:05 PM
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ggibby - 12/8/2008 3:34 PM

When you are at 37,000 feet you are (by law) under IFR, with an air traffic controller managing your flight in effect. Even at lower altitudes, the pilot (if qualified, and airplane also) can elect to make the flight under IFR. (Training flights involving a lot of maneuvering don't fit the paradigm of IFR flight, however).

I don't know the exact parameters but I fly IFR a lot and they generally keep other planes spaced 3-5 miles laterally unless I have a visual on them, and at least 500 feet above or below me. At 37,000 feet, there would always be 1000 feet of clearance.

Vertical clearance is much more useful than 1,000 feet sounds at first glance.

The real problem is when VFR aircraft are cruisiing in the same area. Right now, our brilliant government is rapidly running out of air traffic controllers (because they were all hired roughly at the same time, when Reagan tossed out the striking ATC union members) as they retire en mass. Many VFR pilots would like to "join" the system using a voluntary system where they get "flight following" but the overworked ATC folks often refuse this, out of sheer volume.


But hey, we must spend billions to prop up unions in Michigan, so running out of air traffic controllers is just one of those sacrifices we all must make, I guess.
And some of them quit when their wives begin making more money than them.



This sounds like a case of two aircraft, VFR, in a "practice area". That is to say, this is an uncontrolled area where they are doing practice stalls, maneuvers, etc. Big sky little plane theory doesn't work as published in busy airspaces. I've seen shit that would make a normal person never fly again.
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Old 12-08-2008, 09:27 PM
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This is how good the plane is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohtoi...eature=related
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:23 AM
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kingair - 12/8/2008 11:27 PM

This is how good the plane is

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohtoi...eature=related
Fantastic plane, and excellent piloting skills.
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:22 AM
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kingair - 12/8/2008 2:05 PM

They were probably doing figure eights. That exercise demands alot of attention for new pilots; multi tasking at the highest level.

Regarding VFR/IFR. Privates do not always file a flight plan. There is new guidance and it is detailed so I will not discuss it here. If you fly than you should know the rules.
I think you need recurrent kingair.
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:27 AM
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kingair - 12/8/2008 3:35 PM

I swear and someone may disagree, but flying a 172 for me was harder than flying a Kingair. You really have to be on your toes.
You are having a blond moment-right? I wouldn't tell any of your passengers that.
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